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I agree. Let's support Trump, the person who legalised the West Bank occupation.
You don't have to support Biden or Trump if genocide is a red line for you.
You will, however, be politically impotent in that case. Checking out of democracy because one option is only incrementally better than the other isn't really helping anyone.
What do you mean by "checking out of democracy?"
As for Kamala being less evil, this is true, yes. However, what's the plan, long-term? Just keep voting for increasingly right-wing ghouls, as long as they aren't as bad as the GOP, until the GOP inevitably wins again?
If you want democrats to be a certain way, vote for those democrats in primaries and local elections. You have to fix it from the bottom up and from within.
This is historically inaccurate, though. You can't fix the party from within, because the DNC will always serve its donors. Voting for slightly more progressive democrats won't actually change that fact.
Then I'd say your options are relocate to somewhere with a more appealing government or cede electoral power to others. Third parties are irrelevant on the national scale, and only slightly less so on the state scale.
Agitate for RCV or other election reforms that make third parties more relevant, but until that's the case I'll stand by my earlier assertions.
Then I'd say your options are relocate to somewhere with a more appealing government or cede electoral power to others. Third parties are irrelevant on the national scale, and only slightly less so on the state scale.
The Left has no electoral power in a system dominated by financial interests. The DNC does not represent the Left.
Agitate for RCV or other election reforms that make third parties more relevant, but until that's the case I'll stand by my earlier assertions.
Why would the DNC or GOP weaken their own standing?
Exactly. I agree 100%. The system is what it is and it will only change over the course of lifetimes, not years. Unless your solution is violent revolution in which case I'd still say to also cast meaningful votes based on some criteria of your choosing. I guess you could vote Republican on the hopes a fascist America would more quickly be overthrown internally or externally. That sounds like a terrible timeline to live through, though.
The system is what it is and it will only change over the course of lifetimes, not years.
Capitalism likely will not last that long. The US is losing its Hegemony and the Global South is increasingly acting in their own interests.
Unless your solution is violent revolution in which case I'd still say to still also cast meaningful votes based on some criteria of your choosing.
Revolution will likely eventually occur, it's not something I can just force into happening. Who I vote for will not materially change that course. I do plan on voting, but even if I vote for PSL it won't materially move the Revolution up the schedule.
I guess you could vote Republican on the hopes a fascist America would more quickly be overthrown internally or externally. That sounds like a terrible timeline to live through, though.
Accelerationism is dangerous thinking that quickly backfires. Organizing is still by far the most important duty of Leftists.
Then I’d say your options are relocate to somewhere with a more appealing government
lol this mf literally just said "if you don't like it here, then just leave". Where have I heard that before...
The system is what it is. Third party is moot. That's it. Motherfuckers pretending shit can change just because you really really want it to.
Democracy is when you have the choice between genocider and slightly less evil genocider
If you don't vote, it means you are ok with either one and don't care enough either way to go to the ballot.
Not voting it's not a third option, it's a statement that you don't care about either of the two options. Voting a third candidate is instead simply useless and in practice amounts to the same thing as not voting or voting with a blank ballot.
So in practice the options are: voting for the Democrats, voting for the Republicans, doing nothing and being ok with either one winning or leaving the fucking country.
If you don't vote, it means you are ok with either one and don't care enough either way to go to the ballot.
I plan on voting, my point is that disaffected leftists voting for third parties or refusing to support genocide does not mean support for Trump.
Not voting it's not a third option, it's a statement that you don't care about either of the two options. Voting a third candidate is instead simply useless and in practice amounts to the same thing as not voting or voting with a blank ballot.
Not quite accurate. Voting third party signals that third party platforms are more popular, and can shift the larger parties.
So in practice the options are: voting for the Democrats, voting for the Republicans, doing nothing and being ok with either one winning or leaving the fucking country.
Not entirely true, Electoralism is perhaps the least effective way to gain major change. Organizing and mass protesting can get meaningful change, same as striking. Forcing concessions is the way true change has occured historically, not simply at the ballot box.
my point is that disaffected leftists voting for third parties [...] does not mean support for Trump
With the current American Electoral law, it kind of does. Let's say that 5% of the votes instead of going to the Democrats go to some other third party. In an election this close, where both parties are likely to get between 48 and 52% of the votes, this would mean ensuring the victory of the Republicans.
This is a huge problem with the FPTP system, but that's the law for this election. It would be great to change it, but that's talk for the next one. Voting for a third party ensures that the party you like the least will win in a FPTP system. CGP explains it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Not quite accurate. Voting third party signals that third party platforms are more popular, and can shift the larger parties.
Maybe, but you are still conceding these elections.
Organizing and mass protesting can get meaningful change, same as striking. Forcing concessions is the way true change has occured historically, not simply at the ballot box.
You can definitely do this as well as voting for the party that best represents you. If you don't vote, it means you leave the choice of who will rule the country to the others. At least vote for the candidate that you think is more likely to listen to your protests, rather than forfeiting the elections in favor of the candidate that you know for sure will never listen to you.
With the current American Electoral law, it kind of does. Let's say that 5% of the votes instead of going to the Democrats go to some other third party. In an election this close, where both parties are likely to get between 48 and 52% of the votes, this would mean ensuring the victory of the Republicans.
You're assuming the Right Wing DNC is entitled to Left Wing votes just because they are not as far right as the GOP. If the DNC wants Leftist votes, it should cater to Leftists. The fact that it hasn't done so means their electoral strategy does not depend on Leftist votes.
This is a huge problem with the FPTP system, but that's the law for this election. It would be great to change it, but that's talk for the next one. Voting for a third party ensures that the party you like the least will win in a FPTP system. CGP explains it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
How do you change it? You do realize people have been advocating against FPTP for centuries, right? FPTP serves both the DNC and GOP, so they won't change it. It's always "next election," and has been for a century.
Maybe, but you are conceding these elections.
Even if leftists voted for the DNC they are conceding the election, just to the Dems instead of Reps. A DNC victory is still a loss for Leftists. Leftists have lost every single election in US history, with the possible exception of Lincoln and FDR.
You can definitely do this as well as voting for the party that best represents you. If you don't vote, it means you leave the choice of who will rule the country to the others. At least vote for the candidate that you think is more likely to listen to your protests, rather than forfeiting the elections in favor of the candidate that you know for sure will never listen to you.
If you seriously mean this, then you're advocating for me to vote for PSL, not the Dems. Neither candidate represents me, neither has shown themselves willing to bend to protests, and I am sure neither will listen to me. That's why it's important to organize and force concessions, because neither will give them unless they have to.
You don't understand the basics of a First Past The Post system.
Let's say, for example's sake, that 52% of the people voting tend left, while 48% tend right, and let's also remove all the state, gerrymandering and grand elector bullshit for a moment (I know, so much bullshit)
If everyone were to only vote for either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, come November, the Democratic Party would win with 52% of the votes and secure the presidency. Now let's assume that there's a third party, let's call it "The True Left Party" and let's say they can have a very successful campaign and secure 5% of the votes, which would come from the left leaning side of the voting pool, aka from those who would have otherwise voted for the Democratic Party. Now come November the results would look like this: Republicans still at 48%, Democrats now at 47% and True Left at 5%, so now the Republican Party wins and Trump becomes president.
This is how voting for a third party only helps your enemy. If I were the Republicans, I'd be turbo donating to any left party right now. Divide et Impera as the Romans said.
You don't understand the basics of a First Past The Post system.
I do, and asserting that I must not because I disagree with your analysis is juvenile and insulting.
Let's say, for example's sake, that 52% of the people voting tend left, while 48% tend right, and let's also remove all the state, gerrymandering and grand elector bullshit for a moment (I know, so much bullshit)
Tons of bs, sure, but let's go with that.
If everyone were to only vote for either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, come November, the Democratic Party would win with 52% of the votes and secure the presidency. Now let's assume that there's a third party, let's call it "The True Left Party" and let's say they can have a very successful campaign and secure 5% of the votes, which would come from the left leaning side of the voting pool, aka from those who would have otherwise voted for the Democratic Party. Now come November the results would look like this: Republicans still at 48%, Democrats now at 47% and True Left at 5%, so now the Republican Party wins and Trump becomes president.
No, if 52% voted for a Left party, PSL or the Greens would win. The 5% for the "true left party" isn't coming from the liberals that vote for and support the DNC. You're assuming leftists to automatically vote with the DNC, which is a false narrative. The DNC doesn't represent the Left in any capacity, nor do they pander to Leftist voters.
This is how voting for a third party only helps your enemy. If I were the Republicans, I'd be turbo donating to any left party right now. Divide et Impera as the Romans said.
The DNC are the enemy of Leftists as well, neither the GOP nor the DNC represent Leftists, which is why your previous paragraph doesn't add up.
Ok, let's try again. Those who like the left usually don't vote for the GOP, agree?
Then, for them, the options are three, either vote Dems, vote third party or don't vote. Now, if, like in the example of before, these people are that 5%, do you agree that not voting or voting a third party will result in the GOP winning, while voting for the Dems will result in the Dems winning?
If you think that the Dems and the GOP are one and the same, then fine. If instead you'd rather the Dems win, then do you agree that these people should vote Dems rather than do nothing or vote for a third party, which would lead to a GOP win?
Btw, this is why there's no third party in a fptp system and there can never be one. Your votes are better spent on the candidate you dislike less rather than on the one you actually like, because voting for the one you like will inevitably result in the one you really dislike going to power.
Edit:btw watch that cgp grey video, it's really good. He's really good in general tbh, great guy, very good at explaining.
Ok, let's try again. Those who like the left usually don't vote for the GOP, agree?
Yes.
Then, for them, the options are three, either vote Dems, vote third party or don't vote. Now, if, like in the example of before, these people are that 5%, do you agree that not voting or voting a third party will result in the GOP winning, while voting for the Dems will result in the Dems winning?
Sure.
If you think that the Dems and the GOP are one and the same, then fine. If instead you'd rather the Dems win, then do you agree that these people should vote Dems rather than do nothing or vote for a third party, which would lead to a GOP win?
Is there a material difference that results from what I personally feel? Shouldn't your question be "how can we get the 5% to vote for the DNC?" The Dems are right-wingers and enablers of fascism, if they took strong stances against it and pandering towards Leftists then they would see more Leftist support. The fault lies with the Dems for not analyzing their own positions properly, if they want Leftist support.
Btw, this is why there's no third party in a fptp system and there can never be one. Your votes are better spent on the candidate you dislike less rather than on the one you actually like, because voting for the one you like will inevitably result in the one you really dislike going to power.
I understand that the US is not a democracy, that's why more than voting, it's important to organize and build up dual power.
This is a huge problem with the FPTP system, but that’s the law for this election. It would be great to change it, but that’s talk for the next one. Voting for a third party ensures that the party you like the least will win in a FPTP system. CGP explains it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
that is not the correct analysis. the correct analysis is that strategic voting leads to party consolidation, so the solution is values voting, even if you think another party that has somewhat close values has a better chance of winning.
Holy false dichotomy, Batman!
Holding domestic non-fascist politicians accountable for enabling the war crimes of foreign fascists ≠ supporting domestic fascists.
