Can someone explain to me why Americans seem so hostile towards Biden over Gaza all of a sudden?
US support for Israel goes back decades. America has been in bed with all sorts of dictators commiting heinous crimes and still is. Not to forget the illegal invasion of Iraq with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties or the long list of US war crimes revealed by WikiLeaks and largely indiscriminate drone strikes across the globe. Most of these seemed to elicit much harsher condemnation overseas while the US public appeared generally uninterested. So why does this conflict in Palestine in which the US isn't even an active party suddenly evoke such an emotional response?
There's a segment of liberals that view any victimized or oppressed group as morally superior regardless of context.
Michigan specifically has a very high population of Muslim/middle eastern descent.
It's not that sudden, there's been growing criticism and calling Israel an apartheid state for years. The recent escalation in hostilities just made it more newsworthy.
OK but republicans demanded help to Israel to help Ukraine, until they changed it up.
So it seems that although Biden may be bad, the only alternative is worse.
No, the president gets our votes automatically because he's got the job already and can beat the mean fascist man without tying! All we have to do is verbally abuse anyone criticizing Biden and we'll surely have him as president again and there'll be no problems come 2028 or anything!
Downvote them all you want, it’s a very poignant point that’s left at the wayside of defeating Trump right now. Joe wins in ‘24? The threat of a second Trump presidency is deferred, but he has fundamentally transformed American politics regardless
Yep. Everyone who says this conversation isn't appropriate right now conveniently ignores the fact that they've refused to have these kinds of conversations for the past four years.
Biden needs to stop sending weapons to Israel.
Biden needs to promise to veto any attempts to block a rail strike in his next term.
Biden needs to revert his push for federal workers to return to office.
Biden needs to call off Yellen and Powell on their war against American workers.
He's a shit candidate for anybody who isn't retired or nearing retirement.
I'm starting to believe the worse guy isn't much worse after all. I wanted Biden to win because of promised immigration reform. He promised to halt the expansion of the wall. Give a pathway to all the people under DACA suffering in eternal immigration limbo.
What does he do instead? Continues the Trump administration's policies of using COVID loopholes to deny people at the border seeking asylum. Then he expands construction of the wall he promised to halt, and meanwhile does a couple photoshoots at the border with CBP officers.
Of course, absolutely squat was said about DACA or the millions of people who were filled with hope in 2020 after Biden won. Now we know the hope was a scam. It was all an illusion. A mirage.
My main reason I don't want Trump is because he is racist and xenophobic against Latin Americans. But if Biden is following in his footsteps virtually exactly...
Why should I give a shit who becomes president? I don't like Trump but there's no way I'm voting for Biden. I want him to lose. I want the Democrats to realize they can't just do this forever. I want them to change their strategy. If I vote for Biden and he wins, they learn nothing. They will continue lying and being hypocrites forever.
If Trump wins, you may never get a chance to vote for another president.
Trump is a narcissistic sociopath, to even try to compare the 2 on the level of evil they are capable of, is extremely naive. Also Trump is a traitor who is willing to sell out American interests to Putin.
You may be disappointed with Biden, but there is zero doubt he is the lesser of 2 evils by far. Especially if you are not a billionaire.
If Trump wins, you may never get a chance to vote for another president.
what is the difference between not being able to vote and being forced into voting for one candidate you hate?
Trump is a narcissistic sociopath, to even try to compare the 2 on the level of evil they are capable of, is extremely naive
i think you are the one being naive. trump cannot be the eternal boogeyman that justifies giving the democrats a blank check to do whatever they want. they are both equally shit. trump's a xenophobic racist who was aspirations to be another mussolini, biden actively supports genocide and does not give a single fuck about the people who put him in power.
there is no lesser evil here. just two different types of evil
You're right. Getting beat with a bat isn't really that different from getting punched in the gut. Thank you for all your incredible logic. I really needed it.
to follow your analogy, if you have to choose between two different forms of violence then you don't actually have bodily autonomy. you don't have a choice of "no violence".
the logic is there, even if you choose to dismiss it
Oh! I get it. So all we need to do is not be in the reality that we're in and we wouldn't have this choice. Thank you. I was getting anxious about the possibility that Trump would be our president again. We can have better choices if we change the reality in which we live.
The American left is furious at Biden for the same reason we're angry at pretty much any President's foreign policy. We've opposed most of the interventions and support for dictators that presidents in the latter half of the twentieth century up to today have engaged in. But we have never been the majority, and haven't had the power to stop them. It's important to remember that about a third of the US is composed or pretty reasonable, pro-peace social democrats. The problem is that another third are "moderates" that are okay with empire as long as we pretend we're being nice, and the last third are maniacal religious fascists.
Mainly just due to the recency and severity of the conflict in Gaza, and the fact that it's an election year. Americans never cared when Israeli soldiers routinely dehumanized, murdered, and raped Palestinians in small numbers here and there, but the widespread media coverage of the conflict in Palestine has helped shape public opinion to recognize the incredibly disproportionate response on the part of Israel to the Oct. 7 attacks.
Biden is reaffirming the US's long-held stance on Israel, but it is a stance that is becoming less popular with many who disagree with what Israel is doing. Michigan in particular has a high population of Muslims who turned out in large numbers to oppose Biden, which is why this managed to become newsworthy.
I would also wager a good chunk of this narrative (certainly not all or even the majority, but a good chunk) is likely promoted by Republican-aligned groups who are using this momentum to discourage people on the fence from voting for Biden in the general to help secure a Trump win. Notably a lot of news coverage I've seen lately featured people confirming their plan to vote for Trump, rather than vote for no one, because of Biden's stance on Israel.
Trump himself is remaining relatively tight-lipped about his stance on Israel during this election cycle, despite being a vocal ally of Netanyahu during his previous term, to try to keep the dialog focused on Biden. But it is expected he will continue support for Israel, or even escalate it, due to his previous amicable relationship with Israel and based on how much his voter base likes to dehumanize Muslims (blocking all Muslims from entering the US was an early campaign promise of his in 2016).
It's the only time moderate Democrats actually have to listen to progressives, leftists and anyone who isn't a moderate. The discussions dying down after the elections isn't by our choice, it's just that the moderates stop engaging once they have what they need from us.
So why does this conflict in Palestine in which the US isn’t even an active party suddenly evoke such an emotional response?
Because the US is by all means an active party. The US is selling Israel weapons (including weapons Biden has been bypassing Congress to sell), defending them on the international stage and literally sent them aircraft carriers to prevent anyone in the region from taking action. People have been found guilty in the Numenberg trials for less and people aren't liking the man who's supposed to represent them doing these things.
Keeping others in the region from "taking action" is a good thing. The top priority in all of this for the US has been keeping it from escalating to a region wide conflict.
It also makes sense for America to not cut Israel off completely. If we did that, Netanyaho would turn to Russia who would love to have Israel in their orbit. Any leverage we have with Israel is dependent on aid and support.
Most of the big ticket weapons we sell them are guidance systems for precision guided bombs. They have plenty of dumb bombs, and would just use more of those, killing even more civilians.
Do I think the Biden administration is handling the situation well? No, I think we could be putting on a lot more pressure before risking Russia's involvement with Israel. I just don't think the situation is as simple as many people make it out to be.
Keeping others in the region from “taking action” is a good thing. The top priority in all of this for the US has been keeping it from escalating to a region wide conflict.
And who cares about the US's top priority? The top priority for everyone should be to stop Israel's genocide, not keep a facade of "peace" (read: US supremacy) in the region.
Who cares about a possible WW3? What do you think happens if Iran gets involved? Suddenly Gaza is a tiny sliver of a much bigger tragedy. Yeah, that's a real scenario - even a likely one without the US presence.
If stopping Israel in Gaza should be everyone's top priority, that implies that a US invasion of Israel is on the table. Are you down for that, or are there maybe some other things that are priorities?
The US has leverage to pressure Israel to modify their response. I believe we are tragically underutilizing that leverage. I don't believe it would make that much of a difference though. I also believe that there are even more serious consequences possible if US / Israeli relations fall apart.
It's possible for someone to care just as much about the people of Gaza as you do, but disagree about what courses of action are available.
Who cares about a possible WW3? What do you think happens if Iran gets involved?
It's only WWIII because Israel is capable of dragging the US into it. Otherwise it's just a regional war, and honestly if that's what it takes to get one of the largest factors in regional instability in the middle East to behave themselves it's worth it.
If stopping Israel in Gaza should be everyone’s top priority, that implies that a US invasion of Israel is on the table. Are you down for that, or are there maybe some other things that are priorities?
I mean a threat of invasion would work wonders so I wouldn't object to it (would ironically be one of the most peaceful ways to end this whole mess). But we don't even need to go there.
No? War would be worth it if it got us out of Israel committing crimes against humanity every other day. At some point peace becomes not worth it and we've passed that point a long time ago.
Can someone explain to me why Americans seem so hostile towards Biden over Gaza all of a sudden?
He proactively circumvented congress to sell Netanyahu weapons that he knew would be used for genocide.
Democrats can always find a lame procedural excuse when there's something they ran on but don't want to do, but when it's something they want to do like enable genocide (and oh lordy do they ever), procedure and decorum evaporate in a puff of hypocrisy and convenience.
Part is the fact that the Americans most likely to be upset by the violence in Gaza are the same that are likely to vote for him. And he's being largely unreceptive to their criticism. In any other election, that would mean his base would probably just let his opponent win. There's an obvious problem with that this time.
Basically, Biden is forcing the nation's left wing to pick between showing their disdain for genocide overseas and stopping fascism to at home. It's not a fair choice and people are bitter about it.
It also assumes that you view the democrats as a credible counter to rising fascism... They're currently trying to pass a fascist border bill, and literally using our military to aid in an ongoing genocide.
I don't think there's a choice to be made and I will not be voting for either.
If you are set on not voting in the presidential election, I would like to encourage you to still vote (if you didn't already intend to) and just not vote on that question on the ballot, for two reaons:
Local ballot measures and politicians are still quite relevant and your vote is still fairly impactful there relative to the federal election (depending on your state) and
it sends a significantly stronger message to both parties that they are putting forward garbage candidates to vote and just abstain from the one question. Not voting is easy to mislabel as voter suppression by the opposition or any number of other misleading causes when voting, just not for Biden or trump is much more clear what you are mad about.
Our local elections only happen on off years to suppress turnout, and it's overwhelmingly dominated by landlords and NIMBYs, trust me I'm involved, but that shit is absolutely calcified.
They're choosing between the party that will not try to implement fascism while supporting Israel and the party that will try while also supporting Israel. Why would anyone think that the fucking Republicans won't support Israel?
I'm tired of being screamed at by moderates that I have to vote for their garbage candidate they picked in the primaries. It's obvious at this point they expect me to endlessly compromise while they give up nothing.
People usually call me “radical” or “anarchist” or “socialist”. This is the first time someone has called me “moderate”. What's next, “liberal” 😩
I'm also not American, so it's not “my” candidate.
I'm a German who watches with absolute terror the fascist rhetoric Trump uses, and my mind boggles that some of you are even thinking about not doing everything necessary to stop that.
Basically, Biden is forcing the nation’s left wing to pick between showing their disdain for genocide overseas and stopping fascism to at home. It’s not a fair choice and people are bitter about it.
Guess you missed the huge anti Iraq war protests in the early 2000s. And the fact that we've been making Internet jokes about that and George Bush junior since forever.
In the early 2000's we weren't as connected as we are now and people relied a lot more on cable/network news.
But also, and this is really important to understand, the civilian casualties from the Iraq war were over much larger areas, populations, and time. In the same time frame the rate of casualties was far lower. Coalition forces also did their best to avoid civilian casualties by not targeting hospitals, not kettling civilians, and certainly not doing a concerted bombing campaign with large bombs into highly populated areas.
A lot of what's happening with the rate of civilian casualties is because the IDF has thrown all of those protections out the window. They're specifically destroying the food, water, and medical infrastructure of Gaza. When people inevitably try to evacuate they can only do so further into Gaza. The IDF doesn't allow them to evacuate through their lines into cleared areas. This means people can never actually get away from the fighting. Those are all large scale war crimes designed to increase the number of civilian casualties. But they aren't removing troops credibly accused of war crimes from the area either. In fact they've shown no willingness to prosecute tactical level warcrimes such as shooting clearly marked journalists in a quiet area in broad daylight.
Just today the report landed on NPR radio that the IDF opened fire into a crowd waiting for food aid. The IDF is of course claiming the crowd was threatening. But we've known how to securely disperse food aid for decades. Those soldiers may very well have been threatened, but their officers set that situation up. Also of note is just how fast this gets out to the world in the era of social media.
And we haven't even talked about the immense amount of war weariness in the US.
There were marches like, every other weekend about the invasion of Iraq even before the news came out that we were there over a lie. But Bush was president and it was like, "aww... look at the hippies... they think they're helping.. lol!"
Raddatz observed of the 5-year-old Iraq war, "Two-thirds of Americans say it's not worth fighting, and they're looking at the value gain versus the cost in American lives, certainly, and Iraqi lives."
And Cheney's response: "So?"
It was honestly hard to protest when Obama was in office because there were so many frothing racists about that any public protests against the actions of the president would be joined by literal KKK members. But we wrote letters.. oh boy did we ever write letters. Letter writing parties, phone banking about writing letters, sending out mailers with contact info for all of the local reps and higher ups to send letters to, including pre stamped envelopes and form letters to add your name to.
Nobody cared because Obama was so popular that there wasn't really a question of his reelection. Biden is not that popular, the rare opportunity to use a major issue as leverage to threaten a reelection campaign, even if the result of his loss would be dire is why there is so much news about public opinion on Israel/Palestine.
In actuality, everyone knew W was full of shit. No one remotely informed believed for a second that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 as well as the only WMDs Saddam had were the nerve gas ones Reagan gave them to kill Iranians with. Only the media hadn't worked that out instantly. Your myopic revisionism is very telling.
Putin spent a billion dollars on his propaganda machine abroad in this election cycle, which was discovered recently, and we still remember how much of his propaganda machine consists of social media bots.
Yeah, the US has done some gross shit. But Genocide is pretty bad as bad shit goes. The sheer number of deaths is extreme. Not to mention theyre mostly non combatants.
Even for the US this is evil