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I know I'm gonna get shit for this, but I'm someone who always tries to be fair and look at things from all sides so...
I suspect like many things in late stage capitalism, for at least some not insignificant portion of them, it's not much of a choice. I'll lay odds a good number have a hard time getting jobs that pay worth a damn. I wouldn't be surprised if many were ex-cons, for example - which is why they're encouraged to wear masks, because those in charge don't want to allow that fact to be used to "de-legitimize" what they're doing. The "choice" from the agent's perspective is quite possibly do this, or be homeless & hungry. It's more deliberate cattle-herding of the powerless by those at the top.
I'm sure the majority are probably into the job, but I suspect those that are just doing it for lack of options is not a small percentage.
Nah, fuck em.
Plenty of ex cons or people in shitty situations in general do their best to get by without directly harming people, by having or gaining morals and trying to genuinely be a good person.
Taking the path of least resistance in terms of 'career options' just makes you a bully and a coward.
I am a person who has gone homeless and hungry, from being the victim of these kinds of people... I've never hurt anybody, I put up with all the bullshit and paperwork and constant harassment from every member of society that comes along with being homeless, and managed to crawl my way back to not being homeless, and doing PT, and repairing my credit after having my wallet/bank cards/id stolen.
I have infinitely negative sympathy for people who have actually done crimes and then victimize more people out of the mere fear of ending up dispossed.
Fuck, they could just go work on the farms instead, that would be a legitimate line of work, lots of job openings there!
Your logic is horrendous and allows for a society where anyone doing anything shitty for basically any reason can be pearl clutched and crocodile tear'd away by unduly sympathizing with their personal sob story.
You really think you'd feel the same if these ex con neo nazis fucks busted down your door and sent you to GITMO, CECOT, or Alligator Auschwitz, simply on account of your skin being too melinated and you having a foreign sounding last name?
Gimme a break.
You gonna sympathize with their victims? Write an opinion piece from their perspective?
You are doing apologia for the modern Gestapo, that shit didn't fly at Nuremberg, if it flies with you now, you're a fascist apologist.
These motherfuckers looked a job description that read 'You will routinely carry out crimes against humanity' and said 'Hell yeah, sign me up!"
They deserve all the sympathy of the Nazis captured by the Inglorious Basterds, tap tap tap goes the baseball bat.
EDIT: But hey, at least your user name is apt, Sanctimonious Ape.
How very absolutist of you. The real world isn't so black and white as your idealistic view of things. There's nuance to everything, and to go straight to labeling me as a "fascist apologist" for recognizing that fact makes you no better than any other the other propagandists. Black & white judgements of people are designed to separate us into camps where each thinks they're better than the others, rather than recognizing the humanity in all of us making us all rather imperfect.
EDIT: also, how convenient of you to ignore the fact I acknowledged that most were likely indeed into the job. No, you're not manipulative at all. 🙄
Regarding your edit: I probably haven't moved my profile description over from Reddit, but it went something along the lines of "to 'ape' is an old term used as a verb for imitation, so I'm 'aping' your sanctimoniousness, and giving it right back to you."
Oh what a suprise you're a reddit power user, I am shocked, shocked I say, to find such a person being a fascist apologist via dubious rhetorical manipulation!
Yeah, many situations have nuance.
I have considered, and indeed, first hand experienced the 'nuance' that you describe and now hint at, and find it hollow.
You are obviously an extremely privileged perma online person, who delights in being theoretically morally superior in all situations, not actually giving a fuck about the plain and obvious injustice of a situation.
Yes you truly have mastered the art of sanctimonious aping, bravo at being a completely insufferable ass.
You can't seriously be trying to deploy the 'you're doing black and white logic' tactic when... you yourself acknowledge that these people are into it, that they voluntarily engage in it, and also just utterly ignore that I've personally known many drug addicts, ex cons, who have ended up homeless, and actually did their damndest to get off drugs, to go straight/legit, to recover, that they walked the hard path because it was the right path.
Again, I can only hope that 'nuance' visits your doorstep and impacts your life personally, because you are obviously a disingenuous, solipsistic troll who can't learn anything until it hits them in face like a brick.
Kindly fuck off back to reddit, most of lemmy is really doing its best to be rid of people like you.
People like you are the reason I'm here, so the same in kind. I have to get going now, so rant away. Your lengthy diatribes just lend credence to my point, anyway. Only bullies try to overwhelm everyone else's perspectives with so many assumptions resulting in so much BS.
Aggrandizing yourself is not the flex you think it is. Your selective concern trolling is nothing but a push to divert the issue at hand to make yourself feel better, or more sinister, a part of a subtle propaganda machine to stop people from pushing back.
You should sit at the front lines amongst the ones being affected and we'll see how your statements stand up.
Again, another absolutist - at least you recognize some nuance.
I never said any of this was okay. I did recognize that there are likely some among them who are simply people trying to survive who saw an easy to get job that paid reasonably well & decided to put up with the crap in order to get the money they needed. They aren't likely educated enough to understand the full moral implications, and too pressured by life's demands to spend much time caring about them. Once they're in, I'm sure there's plenty of "team building" manipulation that helps keep them there.
I'm sure to you that makes them evil, but I think ignoring the fact they're human just propagates the hate and division. Like I said earlier, I'm sure they're not saints, but they may not be so far gone that respecting their humanity would be a waste of time. Some of them probably just needed support they weren't getting elsewhere. If you actually want to change their mind, you've first got to understand what got their mind there to begin with. Treating them as subhuman isn't going to get you very far. You can respect the person without respecting their job.
Ignore them. I've had more issues with dbzer0 users than from any other instance. They are clearly attacking you then when you try to defend yourself they try to use that against you.
Really, this all started because you just were trying to think of the person behind the badge, while acknowledging that cops are still bastards. But, because you didn't use the right phrasing they are vilifying you. It's crazy that you're literally being attacked because you're trying to empathize with another human, as if that's a bad thing.
Thank you! I needed to hear that because I was beginning to wonder if I was the one in the wrong and just that clueless about it. Your rather succinct summary helped put this into perspective.
I do wonder what you think "the right phrasing" to use might have been to avoid all this drama. As on edge as the entire country seems to have become, I honestly can't think of a way to say what I did without offending somebody - which is why I led off with "I know I'm gonna get shit for this..." I so miss the days decades ago when we at least would pretend to debate in a civil manner.
LOVE the username, BTW.
When it comes to dbzer0 users, unless you make it blatantly clear that you're a militant anti-capitalist "anarchist" then they will jump to some ridiculous conclusion that you are somehow a "capitalist bootlicker."
There's no need to worry about what specific phrasing to appease them. They seem to actively look for ways to interpret you in a way that makes you an enemy somehow.
Always remember, you better filesystem check yourself before you filesystem wreck yourself.
Yeah, the extreme tribalism in this country has gotten so effing tiring to deal with. Each group attacks others using the exact same methods they're complaining about the others using, and it's absurd just how cluelessly self-unaware they all are. In the end they've all just become bullies, and if their vote didn't count just as much as mine then I'd be inclined to just leave them to their immature foolishness. Since their votes do matter, I feel like I need to point out the realistic & pragmatic POV whenever I can in hopes of at least keeping them from convincing others to join their tribe.
And Putin doesn't have a choice either or he will be killed, same with Kim Jong Un and Trump would be in prison if he wasn't a tyrant.
It's always a choice no matter how you try to paint it, stealing from supermarkets to eat is above being an ICE officer morally speaking.
I don't really get your first paragraph - there's a world of difference in options between those at the top & those at the bottom.
Nonetheless, I agree it's always a choice... to an extent. When you've got others depending upon you to provide, or you're not educated or mature enough to understand what all this means and are just trying to survive - how much of it is really a choice?
I'm not saying they're saints, but I expect at least some of them would rather be doing something else if they could get enough pay for it.
or mature enough to understand what all this means and are just trying to survive - how much of it is really a choice?
Then nothing is a choice, everything is a product of your nurture and nature and free will is an illusion
Everything is a product of nurture and nature. Free will is an illusion. Your brain doesn't give a shit.
Also, law and order isn't based on if there were better choices but which choice you chose.
The fact that your choice was based on fate doesn't change the consequences. It doesn't unassault a 70 year women.
There can be a noticeable difference in choices when there's a lack of understanding what that choice means. If Trump getting into office again didn't make that clear, I don't know what to tell you.
nothing is a choice, everything is a product of your nurture and nature and free will is an illusion
I unironically believe this, yet I also believe that all fascists (including ICE, obviously) need their "medicine" (lead)
It’s always been class warfare. The rich and powerful subjugate the poor, and hold poverty over us to ensure that we do what they want, and we hate who they want us to hate.
Us infighting doesn’t stop the ultra-wealthy from continuing to win, it enables them to. The only way to win is to band together as a people regardless of our race, status, or job, against them.
Fully agreed. The problem is getting that to happen - particularly when they own the bulk of the media from which so many of us "commoners" get what passes for "information." Never mind overcoming the long-ingrained tribalism keeping the infighting going so strong.
I wouldn’t be surprised if many were ex-cons
proudboys, oath keepers and 2%s, of COURSE they were at J6th. so while I agree with the conclusion, I have zero fucking sympathy for their tenuous position. It's probably real hard to keep a job in the real world when you hate everyone.
Yep, I'm sure that's absolutely true for most of them. But it's unlikely to be all of them. If we are to be the better people, then we need to remember not to dehumanize them like they do their victims. Absolutely defend yourself (or whoever they're after if you're up for putting yourself in harm's way), but no more than necessary, or you will be no better than them.
I initially misread this as 'we shouldn't dehumanize proudboys/oath chuds etc' and was like: goddamn this mofo wants me to be jesus
upon rereading: don't assume all the ice-wads are pb/oathkeeper/derp%ers - which is still pretty fucking generous in my viewing; yeah, people just doing a job, but also, that was tried for the defense at Nuremburg - didn't fly there either.