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what's happening now is what happens after years and years of "we need to acknowledge/respect their viewpoint" and "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" and other various "stop being mean to the nazis" shit
as evidenced by the reactions to couchfucker and taco etc, the only thing that does anything (however little) with bigoted fascist narcissists is shaming them with mockery and ridicule. too late now though. they will be murdering protesters soon. in the name of "protecting" them, or "freedom" or some other absolute bullshit
and “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”
Liberals need to ask why the fuck their leaders are so keen on catching fascist flies, but so nakedly hostile to LGBTQ / Muslim / College Debtor / Migrant Laborer / M4A voters.
I'm not sure why they're supposed to cater to Muslims when they are just as homophobic and dictator hungry as Christians.
I'd never support someone who forces women to cover themselves in some sort of bizarre rapist apologist costume
But the rest I agree with for sure
Edit:
Since we're here and people can't understand what I'm saying.
Islam is an explicitly homophobic and sexist religion. It is the same with Christianity.
I know good Muslims, and I know good Christians who disdain those ideals. However, both religions are explicitly homophobic and sexist.
It's not up for fucking debate, its not up for argument.
Their books describe in explicit detail that homosexuality is against God's moral code. Every Bible printed, every Qur'an printed, contains text that is word for word against homosexuality.
So fuck off with this shit. It's not antisemitic to criticize Israel, in the same way its not racist to criticize Islam.
Islam is fundamentally and explicitally homophobic and sexist, end of fucking discussion. Go fuck your self, you stupid fucking religious idiot, if you think otherwise.
Edit2: id like to add this since Islam is so fragile.
Mohammed is a literal pedophile. Your book explicitly describes it.
Go fuck yourselves you literal pedophile apologists.
Iraq, 1960, before US operations in the region during the Cold War:
Muslim extremism is a direct result of US intervention in the Middle East to use countries in the region to fight a proxy war against the spread of communism. The CIA had a years-long operation where they literally air-dropped extremist Muslim propaganda into the region to radicalize the population.
We destroyed the largest democracy in the region and installed a dictator at the behest of British Petroleum (BP) because they elected a man who was going to kick them out and nationalize the industry due to the horrible pay and working conditions they forced on the country. Al-Qaeda started as CIA-backed resistance fighters known as the Mujahideen. The list of issues created by European and American meddling in the region is miles long - neo-colonialism at work.
https://youtube.com/shorts/KGfLOXfhxn8
This is a majority Muslim town in the United States that made flying the rainbow flag illegal.
I will never support religious zealots.
At no point has the qur'an ever, ever, ever been supportive of lgbt rights.
Edit:
I will also say I have sympathy for the entirety of the Middle East and the Arabic people regarding their political situation due to western meddling. Nobody deserves that bullshit.
It doesn't change the fact that the Islamic faith is explicitly homophobic.
Islam /= Middle Easterners.
Fuck Islam.
And the only time the Bible ever made mention of LGBT people is if you go all the way back to the Latin text where one of the people that Jesus healed was a soldier's slave where the word used was a type of male slave the Romans usually kept for sex.
And as far as I know, the Torah makes no mention of LGBT people either, but Hebrew supposedly has pronouns specifically for FTM people that expressly recognizes them as men trapped in the bodies of women.
When all this stuff was written, LGBT people were simply a fact of life that nobody thought needed defending because the two genders bigotry and homophobia came later as a package deal with the spread of European Christianity (and the problems with Islamic culture are the direct result of the US spreading radical Muslim propaganda, as mentioned before - it was exported out of the Middle East). It's not the religion itself that's the problem, but the people who use it as a shield for their hatred. Bigots will be bigots, and religion is just an excuse that they can twist to justify their actions. India has been having trouble for years with Buddhist extremists who are just as bad as the worst of the crazies in the US, and Buddhism is probably the most peaceful religion in the world.
It's like the 2nd Amendment and the US Constitution - old documents created in a different time with different problems being reinterpreted to justify modern hatred.
You can walk and chew gum at the same time. Denounce misogyny and homophobia as well as the anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia that was purposely stirred up by neocons after 9/11 to inflame jingoism and support for imperialism.
Islam is inherently a misogynist religion.
Liberals shouldn't support sexism or pedophilia.
Islam is not a monolithic platonic form, it's the ideas of the people who call themselves Muslim. As people they deserve to be free from bigotry based on their innate characteristics. If you only allow for groups to be uplifted if they're perfect and free from sin, you will always be able to find fault and reason to continue oppression.
You just made my argument for me.
I am gay, Islam hates me while worshipping a literal pedophile.
Religion isn't an innate characteristic. No one is born Muslim.
But guess how I was born?
Do you think I'm homophobic? You're not making an argument, you're just brandishing Islamophobia as if it will accomplish something.
It is literally described in its text.
Congrats on not being homophobic as a Muslim, but Islam as a religion is explicitly homophobic.
It's not Islamophobic to state facts.
Edit: lmao, no response once I bring up the Qur'an. Weird, huh?
Let's return to the origin of this so that you might be able to see where the accusation of Islamophobia is coming from.
In response to someone wondering why democrats are so quick to abandon marginalized groups, you singled out Muslims to decry as authoritarian, misogynistic, homophobic, pedophilic, rape apologists.
In response to my point that we should denounce multiple negative things at once including the faults that you identified as well as Anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia - two prejudices that are intrinsically linked and were politically weaponized - you doubled down on denouncing Islam and implied that no support should be offered to Muslims.
I'm not asking you to avoid criticizing Islam as a religion, I'm asking you to see Muslims as people and recognize that they have been also marginalized and deserve justice too. Please take some time to reflect on this.
Because you're so fucking obtuse that you confuse the book with the religion, no one knows how to explain this shit to someone this fucking dense.
Edit: educate yourself on where the current extreme homophobia in the middle east is coming from
The first is the influence, directly or indirectly, of European powers in the region. In 1885 the British government introduced new penal codes that punished all homosexual behaviour. Of the more than 70 countries that criminalise homosexual acts today, over half are former British colonies. France introduced similar laws around the same time.
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/06/how-homosexuality-became-a-crime-in-the-middle-east
or more carefully studied in one instance here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/comparative-studies-in-society-and-history/article/homophobic-muslims-emerging-trends-in-multireligious-singapore/2B06C99F6DB951C400B24AC82C5BF2A9
the tl;dr is the current severity of the persecution of LGBTQ+ people in muslim countries stems from europe. Not from Islam. Because the stance of one of the largest religions, that is 1200 years old, on any topic has not and never will be as uniquely and clearly defined as you think it is.
Islam is not a monolithic platonic form,
How about American Christianity or Orthodox Judaism?
Whether we're talking about 4,000,000 people, 224,000,000 people or 1,928,000,000 people no religion is a monolith.
Thank you.
I’m not sure why they’re supposed to cater to Muslims
Because they're human beings who live in your country and deserve all the same respect and dignity of non-Muslims.
I’d never support someone who forces women to cover themselves
Fortunately, you don't have to force anyone to do that to cater to Muslims. You just need to hold off on the impulse to harass and brutalize them for having a different flavor of "Trad Wife" conservative culture than Christians and Jews, whom we appear to have no trouble pandering towards.
It's for the same reason we don't criminalize being a Hasidic Jew or an Orthodox Mormon or a family member of Opus Dei. Snatching someone off the street and throwing them into ICE blacksites does not become laudable because the religious sect is primarily composed of Africans and Arabs.
Nothing I said implied the criminalization of their religion. I respect everyone's freedom of religion.....
But guess what majority Muslim countries do to gays?
Spoiler alert: its not fucking great.
Catering = capitulation
This is a reactionary talking point used to discriminate against minorities.
Islam has no respect for me.
I will have no respect for Islam.
Begging liberals to stop stereotyping muslims and spreading islamophobia.
As a christian who grew up in Turkey I can personally attest to the existence of many differing opinions ranging from the complete chud to the open minded. Just like with every other religion or really any group of people. Also there are a lot of gay muslims, I don't know why people make this either-or distinction, a person can be more than one thing.
How many countries with a majority Muslim population allow gay marriage?
Edit: seems like this is a touchy subject.
Do you want acceptance or do you want religion?
Seems like a tough choice among fake leftists.
And those countries are a true representation of the people? How many peoples democracies are in the middle east? And why are there so little, who keeps providing the initial armaments for groups like ISIL, Al-qaeda the taliban and so on? Must be the most homophobic country on earth! Another fun fact, a lot if not all, the homophobic sentiment got exported during british or french colonisation.
As for "acceptance or religion":
Mohammed is a pedophile and Islam explicitly tries to prevent my existence.
Fuck Islam.
Middle Easterners deserve every bit of my sympathy for being unintentionally associated with that bullshit by racist fuckers.
Middle Easterners deserve every bit of my sympathy
Jesus fuck talk about western chauvinism
for being unintentionally associated with that bullshit
Guess how many MidDle EasTerneRs are muslim? Also what about north africans? Central and south east asian people? Do you know how LARGE a group muslims are? That statistically there must be 100s of millions of gay muslims?? Quit with this Muslim=arab=Middle easterner="cishet brown person in a police state" bullshit, its racist.
Because America is mostly a bunch of shit-eating flies and you don't win elections without them.
Because people are terrible.
Flies prefer the stinkiest turd.
Weird, I keep hearing that the dems lost because of progressives and leftists sitting out over Gaza. But I guess the libs would rather lose and fail again at trying to get 'centrists' than appease that apparently pivotal electoral bloc.
After years of "we're the real patriots"... Still saying it.
Nationalism is a primary foundation of fascism.
the only thing that does anything (however little) with bigoted fascist narcissists is shaming them with mockery and ridicule
"But they will just their heels in harder, so we can't do anything at all!"
Destroy Nazi's yes, but there are way more people who are more like middle right who you can still talk and compromise with. It is not for nothing that countries like NL have so many parties that you can vote for. There is more than just left or right. There isn't anything more than being a Nazi or a Nazi hater
Destroy Nazi’s yes, but there are way more people who are more like middle right who you can still talk and compromise with.
One of the more infuriating things the Reich wing media does is conflate those two groups as well... We go after actual Nazis and then Faux News two minutes hate prime time cries all night about how "the left are attacking YOU! they're coming for YOU!"
it's so goddamn absurd but the Magoos lap it up and beg for more...
We go after actual Nazis and then Faux News two minutes hate prime time cries all night about how “the left are attacking YOU! they’re coming for YOU!”
The far right media ecosystem has tens of billions of dollars in subsidies, in no small part thanks to the hundreds of billions of dollars in federal contracts that their sponsors are afforded.
Liberals periodically have the opportunity to cut these organizations off at the knees by defunding the massive privatization schemes that dominate the Federal Government - private prisons, military procurement, private rented real estate, SpaceX/Starlink, etc. But the folks who finally get into positions of power always think they can enrich themselves personally rather than risking their careers challenging Big Business financially.
Curiously, conservatives don't seem to have this problem. They'll butt heads with the business wing routinely, secure in their position thanks to Christian popularism and ethnic nativism. But because Liberals don't value their base voters, they prefer to pander to Big Business. This is also why the lose big elections, pandering hard to financial supporters while scolding any reluctant popular voter for not Voting Blue No Matter Who.
A lot of people on the internet do that as well. "If you are not with me, you are against me"!
In the middle. Between Authoritarians and their nazi troops and poor people going to work or going to immigration hearings or their kids graduation.
Fuck those people. Fuck them with every cactus in the mojave desert. Useless cowardly fence sitting cunts to a man. We don't need them. We don't want them. They chose their side. It's with the nazis. So fuck them too.
Edit - https://bsky.app/profile/iamthepaulina.bsky.social/post/3lrdi57lvok2y - This is what those cowards are supporting. Slavery.
Sorry that you don't have an option to vote for more than left and right and I do. Not being acceptable for others (again don't accept anything from the fucking nazi's). Will not help solve the issue and just push those in the middle towards the right.
How exactly does mockery and ridicule help?
I'd rather put energy in the education of those who can still listen, and the next generation.
Because fascist popularity thrives on power, and ridicule disempowers them. It's teenage "cool" vs "lame" politics.
You can cry about it being undignified or whatever, but it does work. See: teenagers.
I'm skeptical about how efficient that could be. Are you going to compete with how much content they are able to produce to ridicule it? I feel like there's some Brandolini's-like law at play here.
What should I see about teenagers? Last I heard, masculinism is growing among them.You have to compete with the content they produce regardless. Speaking of Brandolini's law, it's much, much less effort to ridicule something than it is to factually debunk it.
Last I heard, masculinism is growing among them.
Yeah, because... masculinism is "cool" and "anti-lame." So it should be mocked.
It's really not that hard to see. When conservatives rage against "woke pussies" or whatever, they're clearly rejecting some kind of perceived weakness. So when you mock them, and you damage their perception of strength, yeah, they flop around like fish gasping for air.
You have to compete with the content they produce regardless.
No, you can educate people from the start so they are able to weed out information by themselves.
Isn't it what you do? You are educated so you are able to detect the far right bullshit.
Or are you really watching a bigger amount of content that ridicule this view in order to counter its effect?I'm gonna be honest: you can't. Education is dry, and dull, and boring, and exactly the kind of lame bullshit I'm talking about. Your strategy is the strategy of nerds and losers.
It's not that it's not worth doing. You are correct that education was my vaccine against the far right. But no one is listening. If you're not drumming up energy, social momentum, no one is paying attention to you. Even people who agree with you are not really getting involved.
You need charisma. Mockery not only damages the rizz of your opponents, exposing them to be the rizzless, softboy soy-drinkers they always were, it also bolsters your own. It gets the crowd jumping and doing stadium waves and shit. I don't know how else to say this, but people like displays of power. That is legit the only way fascists even win.
Long term, it would be great to educate these fickle-as-the-wind dipshits as I was, but that takes time. And, they have to already like you. If they don't like you, they just won't listen.
If you want to move populations, you need to wield the tools of social power. You cannot depend on the truth to do it for you.
Do you realize you are using similar arguments as the far right / masculinist by mentioning nerds, losers, mockery, charisma, soft boys, soy drinkers, display of power?
I said before I'm considering those who may still listen and the next generation. I know you can't change the current maga-like with public education.
Yes.
Do you realize you are also spreading "right-wing ideas," such as "we should not mock them, it would be very mean"? Curious. Interesting. Concerning.
I'm considering those who may still listen and the next generation.
That's awesome. What is preventing you from doing this?
Unironically, the education you give should include how stupid the nazis actually were. Anything less would be lying, honestly. Can we not have a little fun? They're a very stupid and insecure people.
Do you realize you are also spreading “right-wing ideas,” such as “we should not mock them, it would be very mean”?
Do they? You're the first one I read mentioning that.
I'm worried that by using their tactics you contribute to popularizing their ways.
They really did not like being called weird, yeah. You should, I dunno, read the news sometime.
Trump won. Their ways are already popular.
I mean, if I even agreed that the righteous and just weren't allowed to show any contempt—this is a bit like saying Maga also breathe air, choke yourself—but even if I agreed: they won. The landscape is already different.
Are you twelve, or just really REALLY sheltered?
put energy in the education of those who can still listen, and the next generation
this strategy has catastrophically failed over the last 10 years, and here we are.
do what you will. i will continue to paint them as every bit as ridiculous, stupid, gullible, and wrong that they are.
fuck R voters.
let me guess "well, they definitely won't vote D now!!"
yea. that whole "voting" thing is over with. welcome to fascism, and don't forget to thank your racist inbred magahat neighbors for now endless opportunity to "educate" them while they laugh at you and throw everything you say out the window
Do it if you want to, but I feel like it mostly a feel good activity rather than something effective.
For me the only sustainable and worthy solution is massively reinvesting in public education. It's the only way to lift a country's average education equally.
solution is massively reinvesting in public education
this is true. but you're conveniently skipping numerous steps required to even approach that point, not the least of which is destroying the GOP. this is not your grandpa's or even your dad's GOP. it's fucking nazis, and the last semblance of any kind of humanity within it died with john mccain.
and as i've said before, and will never stop saying, AND has been repeatedly demonstrated by real world events-- "rational discussion" with these people does. not. work.
mockery. ridicule. point out in no uncertain terms how fucking ridiculous, stupid, gullible, hypocritical, evil, and cowardly they are.
btw, since you haven't seemed to notice, within 6 months, they've already effectively wrecked education, both K-12 and higher ed. what's left is right-wing propaganda indoctrination factories (actual indoctrination, not what they accused it of being before). science is in the trash.
what is it going to take to get rid of this insistence on "let's sit down and talk with them" attitude? they're already rounding up and deporting american citizens just for not being 100% white. when it's martial law? curfews in every city? when their goons start murdering protesters en masse in the street?
Let us know how that works out in your alternate reality.