How are you all playing these insanely complex games?
Just some off the top of my head: Destiny, Deep Rock Galactic, Overwatch, and most recently Baldur's Gate.
I received BG3 as a gift. I installed and loaded up the game and the first thing I was prompted to do is to create a character. There are like 12 different classes with 14 different abilities and 10 ability classes. The game does not explain any of this. I went to watch a tutorial online to try and wrap my head around all of this. The first tutorial just assumed you knew a bunch of stuff already. The second one I found was great but it was 1.5 hours long. There is no in-game tutorial I could find.
I just get very bored very quickly of analyzing character traits and I absolutely loathe inventory management (looking at you Borderlands). Often times my inventory fills up and then I end up just selling stuff that I have no idea what it does and later realizing it's an incredibly valuable item/resource and now I have to find more.
So my question is this: Do you guys really spend hours of your day just researching on the internet how to play these games? Or do you just jump in and wing it? Or does each game just build on top of working knowledge of previous similar games?
E: General consensus seems to be all of the above. Good to know!
Personally I just hop in an wing it. In the case of baldurs gate I already understood most classes and races because of DND but in general when it comes to games like that yeah I just wing it and hope for the best
For BG3, don't search something about it, just start and play. You don't need to know anything prior, however it's a role-playing game so play accordingly what kind of character you created. You can save-scumming if you want if some desicion you made leads to something bad, though they all the part of the game. Just play and experience.
For games like Overwatch, it isn't complicated at all. It just requires you to play it constantly and learn counter measures just by playing. Learning them is the fun part, overthinking about them not so much.
To be fair when I see "complex game" part, I was kinda expexting some advanced building games, something like Factorio, maybe RimWorld.
Anyway, also you don't have to like any games even if they are overwhelmingly positive titles. Just find what you like and dig in.
A lot of these games are working off of an assumed learned collective memory.
Think of movies, and their tropes. How do you understand that when a movie cuts to black for a second, and then suddenly shows a new location, that we did not just teleport? That the black cut indicates the end of a scene, and the start of a new one?
Think of how many games assume you know which button pauses, which opens the menu, which buttons move the character and which ones make you jump. Now, add another layer of controls. And another.
BG3 is also working with an assumed collective memory from DnD. Assuming you already learned about class vs race, and cantrips vs lvl spells, and turn order, etc.
It sucks when you miss large games that establish these things, but its also how art forms evolve. Games just dont yet have a way to easily re-teach them.
I recently started playing Divinity Original Sin 2, and I went through this problem as well until I changed the way I approached the game.
I just let go of trying to make the most optimized decisions and instead just make the decision I, or my character would make (if I'm role playing).
I just realized that no matter what decision I make, it will still lead me to finish the game. If I really want to, later I can go back and play it again to see more of the game. Only if I like my first play-through though.
I just wing it at first, and figure stuff out as I go, even in online stuff.
BG3 in particular, by the end of chapter 2 you'll be pretty familiarized with mechanics.
Inventory management is here, but worth doing sometimes. I just unload stuff from main character into someone else in the party.
Here's a fun thing you can do: just stop thinking about stats and make a character you'd like to bang, then just ooga booga it.
Baldur's Gate 3 may be very daunting at first, even with its genius tooltip system, so I just went straight into it with a Dragonborn barbarian with no real thought put into it other than "he's hot and totes my new fursona". You'd be surprised at how far you get and how much you pick up naturally over the next 80 hours of gameplay.
That being said, it's still not for everyone, as much as it tries to be, and if even Overwatch is too complex for you already, it might just be that the evolving game design in the industry is becoming more misaligned with your tastes, and that gamers are becoming more and more serious about the video games they play.
The game does not explain any of this. I went to watch a tutorial online to try and wrap my head around all of this. The first tutorial just assumed you knew a bunch of stuff already. The second one I found was great but it was 1.5 hours long. There is no in-game tutorial I could find.
Why do you need to know? Just pick one and go with it!
Deep Rock Galactic
I haven't played much but, it's not complicated? There's a main lobby where you select a quest, then you go on it. It generally involved following a path and gathering/dropping off stuff with some fighting in between.
Overwatch
This one is just anticipating other people's movement on a map, which can be chaotic but I don't really think it's complicated? Honestly if you're having issues just play Paladins instead I would stick by 1 or 2 teammates and just focus on staying with them no matter what. Over time you'll learn what works and doesn't work.
BG3 is a unique example in that its built in a system many players already know and understand, AND the whole thing is so watered down that you can absolutely just wing it with a rudimentary understanding of how things function and be fine. You don't need to min/max to enjoy the game, and if it's too hard there are multiple difficulty levels. It's fine to hit explorer difficulty pick a class for RP and just enjoy the game. The "GaMeR" police aren't going to kick down your door.
The answer to the wider question is: No, I don't. I like learning systems and I've practiced learning systems very rapidly. I've been quickly learning new systems for some 20+ years, so by now, I am just good at it. I do not spend any real length of time researching how to play these games; I load in, read and absorb what's in front of me, and try thngs. Things that don't work, I throw out, and I try new things. After a few iterations of this, if I am still heavily struggling I may Google some build repository so I can glance over some ideas of what other suggest work and then incorporate those ideas into my own setup, but even then, that practice is preserved for more competitive games. Games like BG3, Deep Rock, Warframe, Darktide, Inkbound, and Cassette Beasts, just to name some I've played in the last couple months, I'll never look up how others build and play. This is in part because I don't need to, and in part because crafting my own builds and finding my own solutions is a large part of the fun for me.
I just pick a character class that looks interesting, make them look like me, and get going.
Figure it out as I play, and just have fun. I pretty much never watch videos or read anything about games unless I get really stuck, or have already finished the game and am curious about other playstyles.
If games seem to have a steep learning curve my approach is usually to just wade in and get started.
Sure, I won't play super efficiently and I'll make mistakes but that's all fine for me. I spend all day at work trying to optimize and be efficient, I don't need to do that in my games unless I happen to find the process fun or rewarding in a particular game.
I think it's easy as adults to lose our sense of play with video games, but you can cultivate it by just saying fuck it and using your intuition. It's a game, the stakes are low.
Or does each game just build on top of working knowledge of previous similar Games?
This. There is a sort of gaming DNA that you just internalize over time. I've been gaming for 30 years, I just know how that one breakable wall looks, that you need to come back to once you get bombs or whatever it is. I know the difference between a caster, a fighter and a rogue when I see them without knowing the exact details of their ability mechanics in this particular game. My intuition as to how a given ability is most likely going to work is also usually pretty close. Because they are often very similar across different games.
Also if you don't know and don't have to have the absolute optimal combination from square one, just pick what looks cool and try it. If it doesn't work out, try something else. Most games allow respecs nowadays. We learn through failure and repitition.
Wing it, discovering that I've made a massive mistake is part of the fun, I don't want to spoil any game with let's plays. I don't try to get the most optimal build I'm just looking to have fun. I use what ever gun I enjoy the most in borderlands, yeah when it starts to feel weak I swap but I'm not going to use a gun I hate because it does two more damage that one I love.
Destiny, Deep Rock Galactic and Overwatch are complex?
I play Dwarf Fortress. And I got into it before the Steam version gave it a functional UI. Maybe I'm just spoiled. I've been gaming since I was 3 or 4, so like 90% of what most games require is already ingrained in me. That last 10% is the stuff unique to a particular game; and recently I'm finding these unique things to be the only things not taught in a tutorial. And that is pretty annoying that they will teach the basic controls, which even a non gamer could figure out in mere seconds, but not a mechanic unique to that specific game that no other game has done before.
I'm playing Baldur's Gate 3 with Wyll as my mage, and two custom hirelings that I brought in to replace Shadowheart the cleric, and the vampire thief guy who I was really liking up until he tried to bite me. So I killed him. Also thinking about letting Gale starve to death because I'd rather sell surplus magic items. The heroic characters talked too fucking much, and I didn't appreciate all their drama. Hirelings are quiet and they kill who I want them to kill without complaing about it.
I'm playing a half-drow elemental monk who somehow learned to play the lute and lyre. He's black because I'm black, which is also why I wanted Wyll. I found a cowboy hat somewhere.
Experience. I’ve been playing video games for 40 years. Many of them of any given genre tend to follow a familiar formula. While I also wing it, like others have said, it usually doesn’t take long to recognize the patterns of the formula.
BG3 is based on arguably the most user-friendly version of Dungeons and Dragons, 5th Edition (5e). Larian themselves also do a fantastic job at easing you into the mechanics via gameplay, so you can honestly jump in and just play something that sounds cool to you without worrying about having to min-max or optimize your character. The game lays out what you get on each level-up pretty well and it defaults you to being a single class, so you won’t have to worry about multi-classing unless you want to - and because it’s based on 5e, you can honestly get away with not optimizing your build that much, if even at all, and manage to do fine as long as your main damage (STR for melee, DEX for ranged and Finesse weapons)/casting stat (INT for Wizards, CHA for Bards/Sorcerers, and WIS for Clerics/Druids) is high.
Can’t speak on OW2, but with games like Deep Rock Galactic and Vermintide, I found it’s best to just play it and figure stuff out slowly from experience. A lot of it can sound complicated, but I found it’s easier to digest the complexity of the mechanics and systems a bit at a time as your experience with the game grows. Like with Vermintide, as an example, I recently started really diving in deep with Cleave, Stagger, and Frontline/Heavy Frontline/Tank property mechanics and numbers for melee weapons; you literally cannot see these things from the game’s UI, and starting out I had no idea these things even existed, and it only really matters once you start playing on the hardest difficulties, Legend and Cataclysm. If I had to figure out all that stuff early on, I would nope out of the game super quick lmao.
Deep Rock is good at letting you ignore what you don't care about. I've never needed a wiki for it. It's just fun and silly co op action, with massive complexity mostly about trivial things.
Maybe you should check some lets plays instead of watching tutorials. Just an episode or two to get an idea of what the game is and whether it seems to be up your alley or not.
The lets player will probably explain some mechanics as they come up while they're playing (at least in the beginning to help new viewers unfamiliar with the game) and that should be a lot easier to digest than someone purely explaining a bunch of game mechanics in one go.
I already was a dnd fan so I understood how character creation worked but still spent a good one and a half hour in the character creator. This is something I enjoy though.
I think you know what it is you enjoy, so you've just got to remember not to fall into that trap of "well, everyone says it's good, so I must try it".
The great reviews come from the people who already enjoy that kind of game. Like, reviewers on a site usually favor specific genres. If something gets a good review, you've got to put it into the context of whether or not it's something the reviewer usually plays.
You're not often going to see an RPG review by someone who mostly plays platformers.
So if an RPG is good to an RPG-enjoyer reviewer, and most of the people picking it up are already RPG fans, then good reviews are always going to be biased in favor of people who enjoy that gaming experience.
My advice?
Take a look at the tags on Steam. I know they're user-submitted and "RPG" is on like every fucking game now, but things like "turn-based", "tactical", "simulation", "crafting", and a few others I'm forgetting will most likely be the things you'll want to avoid (maybe there will be some exceptions here and there).
Also, wait a bit. No need to play games immediately. Play some stuff you enjoy for a year and then see if you still want to play it.
As for how and why people play these games... Just preference really. It comes down to the energy and time someone's willing to commit. Neither a good thing or bad thing. Some find that thrilling, others find it chore. Both perspectives are perfectly valid.
Sometimes, people just enjoy them as is without getting too deep and never bother with "the meta" or whatever. Usually one of two things happens here: either they really enjoy it because they don't have people backseat gaming them and telling them how to play and they're finding creative ways to do things, or they find it a miserable experience because it's just not fun if they don't like the core mechanics.
I personally don't have the energy for "deep complex games", despite enjoying RPGs and immersive sims. I don't ever bother with crafting or strategy games (although I did get into Civ V for a while, which was nice).
Over the years, I've learned what I like, what I don't like, and just wait things out. Game Pass and deep sales help a lot here, actually. (Also other options, but not strictly ones people necessarily approve of for various reasons.)
Isn't Baldur's Gate 3 just DnD, so thats easy as I already have that knowledge. All the others don't seem that complex.
Deep Rock is Shoot Stuff, mine, don't die
Overwatch is only complex when you get past the early learning and pissing around and start learning characters and trying to counter pick. Which you don't need to do to have fun.
Destiny I don't remember much of. I guess it had some more complex movement and stats so that one might be more complex.
I got you.
Nowadays I would look at the UI of a game first before jumping in.
If it looks too complicated I just pass. My job is already complicated enough, I don't need to make myself more stressed when I just want to have fun.
At the risk of inviting the internet's wrath, when people talk about the difference between serious gamers and casuals, this is the sort of thing they're talking about.
"Serious" gaming involves a particular set of skills and interests, such that the person is willing and able to just jump into some complicated new game and figure it out. And it's not just that "serious" gamers can do that - the point is that they want to. They enjoy it. They enjoy being lost, then slowly putting the pieces together and figuring out how things work and getting better because they've figured it out. And they enjoy the details - learning which skills do what and which items do what, and how it all interrelates. All that stuff isn't some chore to be avoided - it's a lot of the point - a lot of the reason that they (we) play games.
You talk about your inventory filling up and then just selling everything, and I can't even imagine doing that. To me, that's not just obviously bad strategy, but entirely missing the point - like buying ingredients to make delicious food, then bringing them home and throwing them in the garbage.
I like to just jump in and wing it, learn on the fly. Actually hate playing with people who expect everyone to "have done their research". Games do build on top of knowledge of previous ones, to an extent... but it's figuring out the rest what gives me a thrill.
As for complicated games, I think you forgot World of Warcraft... which I can repeat to you what I told someone who called it a game "for nerds": according to their IQ, 2% of the world population are "gifted", there are 8 billion people, WoW had slightly over 10 million players at its peak.
In an ideal world with equal opportunities for everyone, you could expect a potential audience of 160 million "nerds"... so yeah, some games are going to be more difficult that candy crush.
For a first time don't try to get the strongest character possible. It's a time sink to do that. Usually the main campaign of games are beatable even if you screw up something. The worst that can happen is you backtracking a bit and spending time to level up before doing the next quest.
When you played the game once and got used to the mechanics you can make a 2nd char and plan it more deeply ahead if you wish. You know what mechanics you like so the prospect of finding what to invest in what is worth etc.. becomes more streamlined. But you don't have to. You can just be happy to have finished the game and call it a day.
That's what I did for Diablo 4. After the main campaign I did not feel like venturing more into the game or making another character so I started playing another game. If you really want to 100% a game it does require a ton of time and planning but you don't have to
When you have a lot of experience with games, you find that most things follow common trends and tropes. Like if I open a new shooter it’s a safe bet that shift is gonna make me sprint and things like that.
In Baldurs Gate specifically, it’s basically Dungeons and Dragons in a video game format, so if you know Dungeons and Dragons already that is a huge head start.
Yeah, I'm with you and it's keeping me from really starting a new game. I got back into gaming with Elite Dangerous and got a kick out of the hours of offline research (because the in-game tools were fucking terrible when they even existed). It took me a while to get past the cool graphics and flight, but it got boring and tedious managing stuff. I failed to start Witcher 3 twice before just diving in and deciding I was going to not figure out anything and just play. It's a far more forgiving system than most, and the gameplay benefits from it (to the suffering of realism).
While I enjoy the games, I loathe the min-max and inventory management necessary in most games. That's not technically necessary if you spend a couple hundred hours perfecting technique. While that's less than a month for a full time gamer, it's about 5 years of play time in my life, so I end up looking up some obscure bit on line and chasing crafting for no good reason except to make my gaming time no fun. As a result, most of my SteamDeck time has been on simple arcade shooters and a couple of card-combat games. It's frustrating to know there are good games out there if I just had 20-30 hours to get into them, and also knowing that I'll have 20-30 hours free on a regular basis only when I retire some day. I guess my nursing home days will have lots of content, so I've got that going for me.
First of all, BG3 is built on the DnD 5th Edition system, (with some slight changes) so a lot of people who have played DnD are going to be very aware of the system and how it works. But to be honest, on the easier settings, it's almost impossible to fail the game, you can do what ever you want.
A big tip for BG3 inventory management is to use the "Send to camp" option for items. Grab them whenever, they don't take up inventory space.
Generally I just start playing. If the game keeps my attention and I keep playing at some point all the various character abilities, what is valuable or not and managing items just clicks. And some days I just don't feel like figuring stuff out so I play games I am familiar with.
There are tons of games that don't require that sort of knowledge base or study investment. It's a minority that do. But you're on Lemmy. This is a self selected community of extra thoughtful nerds. This community is more likely to be excited about games with homework than your average gaming community. I do genuinely love the research part of complex games. I like crafting builds and planning battles. I loved both Divinity Original Sin games and will love BG3 when I get there.
But sometimes I do just want a game for my hands to play while by brain takes a break. That's why I spent most of the summer with Earth Defense Force 5, a 9/10 space insect exploding experience. Highly recommend it if you don't want to fuck with the details.
The best way to learn about any complex system is to bite tiny chunks out of it and ignore the rest, even if you know stuff is interconnected. You'll never learn everything at once, so don't try. Eventually you get bored with the little bubble you've carved out for yourself so you move over and learn about some other bit. You don't even need to care about whether you'll understand everything eventually.
Games like Baldur's Gate assume you have at least some DnD experience. I remember playing Neverwinter Nights for the first time long ago and being really glad I played one session of DnD before it.
For me, it's a combination of "just jump in and wing it" and building on top of working knowledge from previous similar games. But I'm very much a "learning while doing" person, so if I tried to research how to play a game first, it's not like the knowledge would sink in. I build up a working knowledge by jumping in and trying stuff out, and a lot of knowledge has at least some cross-compatibility between games of the same genre, even if the game mechanics are a bit different. As I play a lot of games with my partner, we're often both learning a new game at the same time, and you'd be amazed how often we'll have a conversation that can be summarised as "I've discovered how to do X. It's like Y from game Z, except you do A instead of B."
When the game allows for it, I always play on the easiest difficulty setting while I'm learning, as that makes the game more forgiving of mistakes. There's no shame in playing on easy mode, even for serious gamers. :)
Baldur's Gate 3 has a lot of mechanics to it, but it does a really good job of onboarding you in most of them. On character creation, or on leveling up, or anything where the game asks you to make a decision about how you've built out your character, there are tooltips to explain the mechanics. Mouse over it if you're on mouse + keyboard, or press Select or click in the right analog stick if you're on controller (it should tell you which one). It will explain everything you need to know there. But if you'd like to breeze past the character creation screen, you can choose an origin character, which are pre-made, or you can stick to basics. Choose a Fighter with 17 Strength if you want to do melee stuff. Choose a Rogue with 17 Dexterity if you want to do ranged attacks like bows. Choose a Wizard with 17 Intelligence if you want to do magic; magic uses "spell slots" instead of mana or MP, which basically just means you can use a spell that many times. When you get the option to choose a "feat", which is approximately every 4 levels, upgrade that primary attribute until it hits 20, which is the max. Whatever that attribute is (the ones I just listed for those classes), the higher it is, the more likely you are to hit with your attacks.
The gist of it is, when you find a complicated game, you can often just engage with it on the most basic level, and then once you master that basic level, you build on it a little bit at a time. BG3 is a long game, so you've got plenty of opportunity to master what you know before building on it; rinse, repeat. I've applied this same methodology to fighting games plenty of times as well, which many people would consider to be a difficult genre to learn. We got rid of game manuals a long time ago, so complex games have had to get better and better at teaching you how to play while you're playing.
IMHO, some of the beauty of Baldur's Gate 3 lies in the ability to start playing immediately, and discover the mechanics little by little as you go. Instead of an impenetrable wall of complexity, it gives you a world to explore while learning something new every time you play.
Insanely deep rpgs are a bit of an issue for me as well. And I generally do love rpg games, but I feel like the good ones should ease you into decisions a bit better than dropping you into a character creator.
Complexity gives the games depth which allows them to hold interest. You can try something, figure out how to play the game that way, and then go and start a new character to figure out how to play the game another utilizing the knowledge you've gained from prior experimentation.
Some of the inventory management can be annoying at times, but again it's an opportunity to employ knowledge as a means to identify the items that aren't particularly useful to one playstyle and could be useful under another set of abilities/attributes or some set of combinations allowed by the game.
A game that only has one right answer quickly becomes a boring precision button pushing simulator to people who prefer more complexity, variety and depth in their gaming experience.
Not that one preference or the other is inherently correct, but hopefully it can be understood that different people want different things from their games.
It's just lots of experimentation. Lots of complex games are games that are not designed for you to make it through successfully on your first go. They're designed to be complete game overs that you learn from and make it further the next time. Lots of games also have a lot of moving parts that you have to master each one individually before you can tackle the whole thing. There's a reason Hitman speedruns are like 1 minute each level when most regular players can take well above an hour.
I think Larian Games do very little to explain their rules to the player. I, too, found it incredibly frustrating when I played Divinity: Original Sin and later, DOS 2. So while I didn't carve out time from my day to learn the ins and outs of Baldur's Gate III, I did have experience with the other two games that helped me navigate it.
I adore these games but it took many hours of training for me to understand what it was I was even supposed to be doing.
Never played destiny and never will, but deep rock galactic, overwatch, and baldur’s gate all have mechanics rooted in other games. After playing a few other ability-heavy shooters with slower onboarding, OW and DRG make sense.
Personally, I find that researching games on the internet can be really fun. I get analysis paralysis pretty badly (I'm the guy who is always worried he will be out of consumables when he needs them so he never uses them in the first place!) so researching a little beforehand helps me enjoy myself more. I don't need to min/max the fun out of a game, but knowing I'm on the right track is really good for my enjoyment levels.
And this is very much a me thing, and that's okay. We play games to have fun so play the way that's the most fun for you. If you don't like doing research before you play, but the game seems to require it, then play something else. It's okay to not like a game. (I wasn't super into BG3... shhh! Don't tell the internet or they will burn me alive! Good game, but not for me.)
Personally, I really like rogue-lites these days. They're games where you are meant to replay them and every run will be randomized in some way so that each one ends up being unique. (Hades, FTL, Nova Drift, those sorts of games.) The randomness makes it so that there's no WRONG way to play, just better or worse choices for a given run, which takes that "stress" of making a wring choice away for me.
You gotta find what floats your boat and don't worry about the other games.
Do you guys really spend hours of your day just researching on the internet how to play these games? Or do you just jump in and wing it?
I jump in, wing it and if I don't know how stuff works I quickly search it in the game's wiki or guide. Time spent figuring out how stuff works by trial and error is time I could play the game instead.
For destiny, I have no idea. I first played D2 when it launched and that was fine, but I attempted to pick it up again a year or two later and I was immediately lost.
For overwatch I agai haven't played in quite some time. But for multiplayer shooters like that I try to go into a casual mode or training mode first and just get a feel for everything. Eventually you get the hang of things.
For RPG's it depends. Some games can benefit from reading up online. For example I'm playing bloodborne right now and I had no idea how I wanted to spec out my character. So I looked up what weapons and abilities are in the game and made my decision based around that. If a game features a respec option, I'll be more likely to just go in and wing it and change things up when I need to.