Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct

I've got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.

However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.

It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO's are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it's a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It's likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.

Maybe, but it also means that you'll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.

There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don't have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that's not a bearable existence. Sure, you got power, but you're miserable and afraid all the time. Was that really worth it?

This is only true in a world that is mostly full of people with morals. A society built on lying and manipulation inevitably collapses - look at what is happening to the United States. They elected an amoral lying manipulator and in just six months their society is unraveling. They just passed a law that took money away from hungry children and sick people so that their psychopathic leader can better persecute his enemies: that is, anyone who opposes him. ICE just became the best-funded "law" enforcement agency ever created. It is obvious to everyone except a handful of naive idiots that ICE will be used against US citizens to consolidate MAGA's power in an attempt to create a permanent regime. These states always collapse sooner or later, though, because morality is the foundation of law. No one is going to invest in a country where their assets can be seized and they can be imprisoned on the caprice of a senile madman. You can't have trade without trust - all that is left in places like the US are predators and prey.

Yes and i would choose to have morals anyway

Yay capitalism! Perfect reasoning not to feel bad lying on a resume.

By some definition of "further", sure. Mainly the definition someone with no remorse would have.

You'll still be a shit person, likely with no meaningful friendships. That's gotta factor into the equation somehow.

It may seem this way at times, however, it really depends on the system you're participating in.

Have a play around with: The evolution of trust - https://ncase.me/trust/

One doesn't do the right thing to be rewarded or to 'get ahead'. One does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Selfishness only leads to insecurity and loneliness.

It depends where you want to go. Knowledge is always bigger than power, power gives money but knowledge gives depression and suicide thoughts. The fast escape path is obvious.

Sure but it's lonely at the top. If you rise to the top by backstabbing people, you'll end up exactly how some people right now are, and you keep trying to accumulate more and be great or whatever messing up everything else and being hated.

While a simple life with your loved ones will give you satisfaction. And satisfaction is the key to happiness. Rather satisfaction is the ultimate happiness.

I've known this for a long time but I continue to do my best to operate honorably. I may never be rich or powerful, but I sleep very well at night.

I so wish that I could grift the fuck out of the goddamn Nazis and get rich off of their idiocy but I would feel icky with dirty money.

I disagree, other than a few notable counter examples most times folks are only successful when they build reliable business relationships. Most relationships will dissolve if one party is playing games.

On average it's more effective to follow "The No Assholes Rule". There's plenty of studies (referenced in the book Good To Great) that indicate that humble business leaders produce build more stable and long term profitable companies.

Lying manipulators can sometimes get ahead but just as often they get found out and blackballed.

I think it might be like a game theory type situation where if everyone is honest, then the first liar might get ahead a lot (although I suspect in that situation they'd immediately be shunned by all honest folk if found out). If everyone is a liar then honest folk have nothing to hide and probably will just be really defensive in their dealings.

It's because we live in a system with perverse incentives. It's practically designed by psychopaths, for psychopaths. Still, we only get one life, don't spend it going against your better nature.

Yup and add intelligence to the list as well. Smart means nothing if you can't back it up with being an amoral pile of shit that takes advantage of people every opportunity you get.

A system designed by psychopaths benefits psychopaths? No way...

Depends on how you define "further". I'd like to leave this earth knowing I had a positive impact on those i met while I was here. I can sleep easy at night, even dispte all the hardships in my life atm, knowing I'm doing the best with what it is I have. Also, in my early 30's, I started to really internalize the, "having nice things means keeping things nice" i.e. you don't need new shiny things all the time. Take care of what you already have and you'll never be without.

I can't lie and manipulate my way into being a kind and honorable man, friend, son and brother. Me achieving those things brings me greater peace of mind and satisfaction than anything I'd ever need to lie my way into to get.

It's true. Still, I can't lie for some reason.

"Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct" This is the reason psychopaths are so successful.

The world actively rewards bad behavior. This realization was a difficult pill for me to swallow.

Absolutely true and stating otherwise is just crowd control.

It makes a lot of sense. Lying and manipulation are done specifically to achieve goals. A defining characteristic of morals is that you're supposed to follow them even if it's neutral or disadvantageous for you. If someone follows "morals" to achieve a personal goal, they're not actually following morals, they're just acting in a way that incidentally looks moral.

House MD Pilot

I'll die poor with morals rather than rich and evil. I'm okay with that.

I mean, yea, that's how the economy is kinda designed for most of the world right now.

In the employee-employer relationship, the better you are as an employer at manipulating others into working for you while you retain ownership of the revenue, paying employees out percentage of what they generated as a wage while keeping the excess value as profit, is how you make a successful business.

The business-consumer relationship boils down to a transaction where you want to be the one who has the advantage on the transaction. Sellers want to sell their products for more than they're worth while the consumers want to buy those products at a discount of their perceived value. The seller's entire job is to manipulate the consumer into perceiving more value in their products than the base material value of the product to generate a revenue that exceeds the cost of its production to generate profit. That's like the basis of advertising and marketing.

I've been self-employed for about 30 years, which puts you rubbing elbows with other self-employed business people.

I have learned that while MOST people want to run a friendly, moral, legal business, and would never cross the line, there are a plenty of amoral businesspeople who don't have any problems crossing the line.

Furthermore, they are well-aware that many businesspeople won't cross the line, so that makes their willingness to act illegally or immorally their personal competitive edge, and they absolutely look at it that way.

They watch for decent, moral businesses, and they target them in various ways, either as a competitor, a supplier, a contractor, etc.

There’s very few things more galling than yourself playing by the rules, putting in the time and effort to have some kind of social contract, only to have someone flippantly disregard said rules and contract and to benefit from it. Doesn’t matter if it’s someone cutting in line or pillaging the highest office in the land for their own gain.

It makes you bad at art and inventing tho. The liar plays a shallow game.

It says grim things that by playing the shallow game you can succeed in our society. I blame the rule of law. It was basically designed to be gamed.

Say what you will about dictators, at least they're human.

I wish this wasn't true, but it's tragic that it is.

Learning this from my (soon-to-be-ex-) wife right now...

That depends on how much people with morals stick together. People are isolated so that they can be manipulated.

It's almost always been this case since the beginning of mankind. Being good does more harm than being bad.

The Evolution of Trust

While feeling numb and miserable

We create a world of kindness or selfishness, judgement or forgiveness every day. These behaviors may get you money or power, but the world you have to live in gets worse. I don't think you realize how much you lose getting ahead, and how much you cost everyone else.

Unless you meet someone like me, who does not wait for aithorities to resolve things.

My co-workers did that literally hours ago, admited everything within moments.

Depends what you mean by "further". It is a trait that definitely serves well in some very lucrative areas like business or politics. But it very easy to ruin other aspects of your life like your relationships, your public image, and can run you afoul of the law. In areas of work where your image is paramount, being a liar and manipulator usually only gets you so far because it's very hard to maintain those lies and hide the manipulation under massive public scrutiny, particularly if you're doing illegal stuff in addition to it. Of course the wealthier you are, or the more fanatical your following, the more you will have others lie and manipulate on your behalf, so... accountability can decrease that way.

Unless you’re mediocre at it and have adhd and then it’s just easier to always tell the truth so you don’t have to forget about something.

I live my life to spite these people :)

Lying and manipulating people won't get you anywhere further in this world. Having more money than someone or a better position in a company doesn't actually mean shit.

Yeah that tends to happen when most everyone enables such behavior.

Absolutely. Shouldn't be where I am, but I feel like the world is full of gullible people.

And water is wet

Exactly and I love it.

Maybe, but not in the next one.

if that's what matters to you, then sure, go ahead

That depends on how shallow you want your life to be.