How do the slrpnk admins feel about potentially hosting a community that discusses the role of narcissism in social/economic/political/ecological issues?
How do the slrpnk admins feel about potentially hosting a community that discusses the role of narcissism in social/economic/political/ecological issues?
I've been studying and thinking about the intersection of psychology (particularly narcissism) and politics for a few years now. I have reason to believe that this particular psychological phenomenon may actually underpin many or all of the problems/crises that our species currently faces. It is a difficult topic to talk about, however, because the nature of narcissism defies most conventional ideas about human nature and the strategies that we should employ when trying to deal with people.
During recent interactions on the /c/anarchism community of this instance I was (pleasantly) surprised to find other people in the wild who are also interested in this topic and who are reaching some of the same conclusions that I am. That particular community doesn't seem to be well-suited for this sort of discussion, however. While anarchism is actually a pretty important part of the overall topic (it's basically the perfect antithesis of the ideology that emerges from narcissism, as well as an important part of the optimal counter-strategy), it is not the entire topic. Additionally, it seems that /c/anarchism is a bit under-moderated compared to what it would need to be to have such discussions? The most relevant post got a lot of bad-faith comments. Many of them questioned the premise of anarchism in the first place, which is both off-topic to the post, and kindof inappropriate for an anarchist community/instance in general.
Anyways, this new community would discuss the role that narcissism plays in the issues that we face in our world on a more societal scale rather than an interpersonal one as would be typical of discussions about narcissism, generally. The discussion will be pulling from multiple fields of study, including psychology, anthropology, neurology, and mathematics. (I am still working on what the name should be...)
I do have some moderation experience already, though it is in the context of a small, private Discord server. Moderating something as open as a Lemmy community will be new for me.
A big part of why I am going to the effort of making this (long) post is that I want to make sure that the admins of this instance are really OK with the topic of this community, and the possible consequences for hosting it. Specifically...
Narcissists really hate when people start recognizing them for what they really are and actively try to counter their manipulation and remove their power. The mere existence of this community will trigger them. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if problems start showing up in the comments of this very post. Depending on how popular this community gets, this could paint a target on slrpnk.net in general. I don't really know what the exact consequences of this would be, since, to the best of my knowledge, this sort of thing hasn't really been done before.
The topic is also a somewhat tricky one, as it comes uncomfortably close to some lines that reasonable people tend to draw between what they think of as acceptable/unacceptable behaviors. We'll arguably be advocating for discrimination against narcissists, and while the term 'narcissist' doesn't currently refer to an individual that would be recognized as having a personality disorder under current diagnostic criteria (the term is currently broader than the relevant criteria), there is ample evidence that it probably should (that is, the criteria should probably be broadened to match the term). That said, we're talking about a group that is defined by the patterns of abusive behavior that its members express, so the situation here is a little different than it is for, say, sexism, racism, or people suffering from depression or other kinds of mental health issues. Discriminating against people based on mental health issues is usually disallowed by blanket anti-bigotry rules, so I'd like to make sure that the admins understand how the existence of this community might strain the way that their instance rules are currently written if they agree to host it.
Despite these potential issues, this Lemmy instance seems to me to be well suited to host such a space, as I think the practical, prefigurative, anarchist philosophy of slrpnk.net is broadly compatible with the conclusions that I've been able to draw from my studies thus far.
Obviously, I'd have to make a new account on this instance in order to create/moderate such a community. That's fine. It may take me a moment to gather a couple of people to help moderate as well, and it may take a bit to construct a good introduction post. I've got plenty of stuff to write about for some initial content, though.
Lastly, assuming you guys are cool with this, are there any tips you can give me on moderating Lemmy communities? Anything I should know coming from a Discord moderation background?
P.S. On the off-chance that someone had seen the previous iteration of this post and is confused: I re-created this post because it didn't appear to be federating properly. I suspect this has something to do with the recent slrpnk outage. I am hoping that re-posting will fix this. EDIT: This does seem to have worked. I can see the post from the slrpnk instance directly now.
I would be on board with that, but given our past conversations it wont surprise you.
I have some experience of moderation, I used to be one of the many moderator of /r/france the main french-speaking subreddit.
We’ll arguably be advocating for discrimination against narcissists
I think that sentence will trigger understandable reactions. The thing to realize is, most people are often already discriminating against narcissists when they fight against toxic behaviors, cultism, doxxing, trolling, etc. Safe spaces especially triggers them.
We often use labels like bigots or fascists for them, but it is becoming increasingly clear that it is not connected to a specific ideology but to a specific psychology (that tends to be attracted by some ideologies)
Anything I should know coming from a Discord moderation background?
People will call you too soft and too harsh and both will deeply feel you are on the side of their opponents (there is literally one subreddit about far-right people thinking /r/france is a communist cult and one with far-left people thinking it is a nazi den). It takes a toll on your mental health, take breaks.
IDK... there are some very profilic (and partially even self-professed) narcissist on Lemmy that really like to stirr up drama to be in the center of attention. We had a few run ins with them before here. So yeah, I know what you are talking about, but what is that new community exactly supposed to achive?
Many of these people are apparently childhood trauma victims themselves and rather need professional help and not some online community vilifying them 🤷
(I am not trying to excuse their toxic behaviour, but to me it seems to be the best to just ignore them and remove their flame bait posts when they show up).
So yeah, I know what you are talking about, but what is that new community exactly supposed to achive?
The central thesis or hypothesis, if you will, is that all of the issues that we are dealing with today (authoritarianism, late-stage capitalism, fascism, sexism, racism, systemic ecological destruction, the destruction of the concept of truth, etc...) are fundamentally rooted in narcissism. The point of the community is to explore this relationship, and take advantage of that perspective to discuss effective strategies for dealing with these problems (generally via dealing with the underlying cause - the narcissism itself). When you start casting the polycrisis through the lens of narcissism, a lot of the conventional ideas about how to address those issues fall apart (including many ideas that are common in anarchist circles).
I expect that the bulk of the content would be focused on analyzing the connection between the psychology of narcissism and various aspects of politics/economics in both historical and contemporary contexts. For example, one thing I expect that we would spend a lot of time discussing is exactly how authoritarian societies emerged from the egalitarian ones that were ubiquitous prior to the development of agriculture. We would also discuss things like how the dynamics of capitalism map really nicely to the transactional nature of narcissistic relationships, or how various elements of modern social etiquette practically seem to be designed to enable narcissistic abuse (e.g. Gossiping would pretty thoroughly defeat a lot of narcissistic "splitting behaviors", and yet it is often taboo).
Besides analysis, we would also discuss effective strategies for dealing with common problems in a way that is narcissistically-aware. Moderating communities, both real and virtual, would probably be one of the most common topics of discussion in this regard. Maintaining a space so that it is inclusive, especially one that is public, while also preventing abusive behavior is really challenging, and there are lots of subtle ways that things can go wrong that a lot of people overlook because they don't realize just how insidious bad actors can actually be. We can talk about more conventional direct-action strategy stuff too, and in a lot of ways I would expect those discussions to look a lot like similar discussions between anarchists that you've seen elsewhere. It's just that we'll be taking into account the fact that we have an actual psychological model for how the bad actors will really behave, and so we will be able to adapt our strategies accordingly.
I hope this helps you understand what I'm going for here. I'm not trying to make a hate-club or anything. I think there's genuine insight to be had here that could be very helpful for a lot of people.
sounds like a high level class but i'll be interested to follow along and see where it goes. I'm hoping to join or set up a mutual aid group, so knowing behaviours to watch for and how to navigate them will likely prove useful.
This seems pretty constructive to me. I know there are people who will say that confronting narcissism as narcissism isn't helpful, but I feel like that couldn't be further from the truth. As someone who's been affected by these patterns of behavior for decades, it's the realization of how the pattern works that's given me a way to defend against it. Narcissists tend to want to atomize their behavior in other people's eyes so that the patterns won't be seen. It's easier for them to deflect from a single incident if that's the only thing that's allowed to be on the table, but it's never about a single incident, it's about the pattern.
Deception and minimization are much simpler goals in a world where their victims aren't supposed to look at the past, or aren't supposed to draw conclusions from patterns of behavior. But when you do pay attention to the past and you do look for patterns and cycles, that's when you can see what's going on and defend yourself. That doesn't just apply to individual relationships, it applies to our societies. The entire capitalistic model is one of atomizing wrongdoing and denying responsibility in the face of capital.
I definitely think this could be a positive thing, and I don't think that's outweighed by the people who exhibit these patterns having the need to shut down conversation about them. If people come in to derail things or demonize people who are trying to figure out how to get out from under the very real harms caused by narcissistic abuse, that's what banning is for.
A huge amount of childhood trauma and abuse is enabled by people shying away from recognizing and calling out narcissistic patterns of behavior. If some of the people perpetrating the next iteration of that cycle have also suffered from abuse, that's not really an argument for letting the cycle continue.
I feel like focussing on narcissism is a bit of a red herring. Yes, these people exist and often thrive in capitalist societies, but they are not the main cause. I can see a certain interellation when narcissist thrive and that in turn pushing "regular" people also towards egoistic behaviour, but ultimatly the capitalist system works as intended and it isn't some hidden cabal of narcissists that created it.
We’ll arguably be advocating for discrimination against narcissists, and while the term ‘narcissist’ doesn’t currently refer to an individual that would be recognized as having a personality disorder under current diagnostic criteria (the term is currently broader than the relevant criteria), there is ample evidence that it probably should (that is, the criteria should probably be broadened to match the term). That said, we’re talking about a group that is defined by the patterns of abusive behavior that its members express
If you're going to vilify an entire group of people, do so based on their actual behaviours and not on the personality trait(s) that they share. I would view discrimination against narcissists (as defined by personality traits) as equally inappropriate as discrimination against homosexuals, autists, schizophrenics, and so on. That said, I'm not an admin, so I can't stop you from doing whatever you want to do.
If you’re going to vilify an entire group of people, do so based on their actual behaviours and not on the personality trait(s) that they share.
We are villifying them based on their actual behaviors. It just so happens that when you look at the reasons for those behaviors, you see that it is caused by a personality type/disorder, and as such, naming the group that behaves badly in this way also essentially names the personality type/disorder. You simply cannot separate the two concepts, because they are causally/definitionally linked. As such, it is paradoxical to simultaneously condone discriminating against the behaviors and condemn discriminating against the personality type.
I don't know enough to say whether the two are in fact definitionally linked other than by your own definition, but even if they are, it comes down to a matter of phrasing. "If someone's brain works this way then X" is different than "If someone tends to behave this way then X" in the realm of ethics. Whether there is any material difference is another matter. In any case, do what you want. It seems like an interesting topic.
I can see you're getting some push back, so I just want to propose a half-baked idea that maybe could help you in your endeavor: what if instead of focusing on narcissism in politics the community would be open to discussing different psychological aspects that clash or monopolize with current/historical systems?
Example1: autism and the general perceived inability to participate in society. I completely empathize with a mode of thinking in absolutes, which in turn leads to difficulties in navigating a system where sometimes people follow the law to the ts, sometimes bend and massage the truth out of things. (Extremely broad interpretation)
Example2: on conversations about ADHD people bring up how that might have been a feature in past societies, but no one really discuss how people with ADHD can adapt and use their advantages in today's world, or how could we shape today's world to make it inclusive to all neural divergences.
Granted, I'm no academic in the psychology field and I could be talking s*** for all I know, so I apologize in advance for that. I just feel like we miss on societal advances by not acknowledging all these new things we learned about human psychology in the aspect of our political systems.
Side note: have you seen this article? https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/what-happens-when-a-bad-tempered-distractible-doofus-runs-an-empire
Autists and ADHD do not harm society (usually it is society that harms them). Helping them integrate better do require some adaptation but it won't come at a huge price for non-autists or non-ADHD.
Narcissists damage society and usually integrate already very well with it. They don't want to change, either themselves or society, to lower the amount of damage.
There is a fundamental difference between neurodivergence and narcissism. The solution is not to point the finger at neurodivergent people for the sake of some false both sides narrative.