Let's stop dicking around and talk about ditching something big: Visa and Mastercard
Let's stop dicking around and talk about ditching something big: Visa and Mastercard
Visa and Mastercard are American companies, and they essentially tax everybody by taking a percentage of purchase prices for themselves. Not exactly a small percentage either, 1.2% to 2.65%. Ever wonder why so many merchants say they don't accept American Express? That's because they charge quite a bit more to merchantes, 50% more than Visa or Mastercard. Anyway, we're letting American companies tax us and we love them because we get rewards when we use cards. But it's just a shell game because we pay more up front because businesses need to charge more to make up for payment processing charges. They get to sit in the middle and rake in the money.
Now the alternative in Canada is Interac. Interac charges a set amount per transcation. How much? 2 to 5.5 cents. Unless you're going through Apple or Google Pay, and then it's a percentage again.
Interac is also Canadian.
Want to stick it to Trump? Stop using credit cards (and Google Pay or Apple Pay) and switch to Interac. Want to make Canada better? Stop using credit cards and switch to Interac. Is it going to be inconvenient? Yes. Online shopping will be much harder but I have seen online Interac payments before and we can ask our favourite Canadian merchants to accept Interac online.
Even if we dumped all online transactions and used cash for in person transactions, there isn't enough cash in circulation. Less than 3% of US dollars are printed on paper. The rest is just numbers on spreadsheets. There is no way we could function without electronic payments. This is true in almost every country that has a central bank that engages in fractional reserve banking.
Are you 14? This might be the dumbest post I’ve ever read in my life. Like, love the energy bud. Just use your fucking debit card.
I have never seen the option to use or have ever heard of interac in my life.
In Brazil, there is no alternative :(
For a huge chunk of the internet there isn't one either. If Visa/Mastercard suddenly decide they don't want to do business with you anymore, you're fucked.
I nearly asked "What about American Express?". Sometimes I wonder how I graduated kindergarten.
It's okay, there are 35(?) countries I believe in America. 1 that gets talked about a lot. Being that they are discussing this from Canada in America, I'd say it's safe to consider maybe American Express could have been from Canada. Mexico, Argentina, Brasil, and most other large countries in America aren't English primary, so it would be harder to pass them off.
Discover though, who knows what they are doing
is this the same interac corporation that won't do anything about their god awful etransfer system? no app like venmo or cashapp? how many years did it take them to implement autodeposit? why do etransfers sometimes take 1 hour?
No one has enough money, and this trend will get worse as this trade war goes on. Unless you can replace the credit buffer this initiative is a non starter.
To many people are living partly on a credit card, we need to ether replace it with an non american credit card, some other form of credit (LoCs are harder to get at the moment) or find a way to get more money to Canadians.
Cryptocurrencies?
I mean, how long would it be until the next fascist Canadian prime minister?
Better to just get the government out of our wallets.
crypto doesnt help, because all of the crypto coins can easily be captured and influenced by big tech. most of them are also super heavily reliant on US tech
looking for a technological solution to a systemic problem is a bad idea really
if you really want to change things, we need to end capitalism
The Canadian banks are big enough to build a wholly Canadian credit system for global use, especially if they could get everyone in Canada (and maybe elsewhere) to switch right now.
They probably get too many incentives from Visa and Mastercard to find it enticing though, which is why they're always pushing credit cards and offering cashback and airmiles, etc.
I think there is a European alternative being developed. Perhaps we can get in on that.
The Canadian banks are big enough to build a wholly Canadian credit system for global use
lol Canadian banks don’t even do their own credit analysis, and they rely on interac… they can’t even rollout the basics
YES, I ain't even Canadian but been saying this since day, those 2 companies are such a huge factor in how much leverage this 2 party dictatorship has over majority of the world, that and Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. This is why Cash is King, and using American payment processors just feeds their power and leverage over global finance.
You can see how its affected Russia when US payment processors halted operations as part of sanctions. The only viable alternative is using Monero for online transactions and physical cash.
Monero is the only realistic and promising way of paying people online without relying on the two largest payment processors on the planet, fully under the control of the US. The ONLY crypto that's actually treated and used as a currency, rather than a stock like btc, and actually has any real world use and offers privacy.
I work for an American credit card company, and my advice is to ditch credit and debit cards entirely. Use cash.
Credit cards (when used correctly) is one of the few pro consumer products we have left.
Most cards come with fraud protection, something you cannot get with cash, checks, or gift cards.
Similarly, most cards come with purchase protections like extended warranties. I have a credit card that gives me free damage protection on my cell phone so long as I pay the monthly bill with it.
I'm not saying cash isn't great but there are good reasons to use a credit card. At least for now.
As another American who works in the industry, it's a wedding cake of frighteningly bad software piled on top of well-intentioned but poorly implemented mandates piled on top of willful ignorance frosted with solving problems people don't actually have. And the little couple on top are both the capitalist pigman from a 1930s Soviet poster that we all recognize thanks to Hexbear :`(
I prefer cash too.
I would love to hear your side of things. Cash is better for curbing impulse spending and it is of course anonymous but it is inconvenient. I feel like there's a target on my back when I walk around with more than a couple hundred dollars.
If enough people know you're carrying that much cash for it to be a potential issue, you've got other security issues that should honestly be your priority.
There also is no middle-man with cash.
My personal opinion is that the convenience isn't worth the unspoken costs, much less the overt ones. Credit card processors already charge merchant fees on top of the interest charged by the banks that issue those cards, but they also get all your personal data associated with that card. It's more than enough to be worth selling to advertisers, so anyone who cares to spend a few bucks can buy your purchase history and build a profile. Name, address, contact info, the coffee shop you visit regularly and when you can be found there, the daycare you send your kids to, etc. It's very not-safe, especially when the government decides your type of person is now unpersoned.
More fundamentally though, I think the problem comes down to money itself. The use of any form of currency as both a store of value and a medium of exchange creates a multitude of perverse incentives to the detriment of society. Families work best when money isn't coming between them, and I think that principle is generalizable to our species as a whole.
Canadian debit cards are very different than American cards.
3 times in my life I took out a consolidation loan to corral all those costs and pay them off. Credit cards are both a blessing and a curse. Gov't should provide credit services at a reasonable, non-compounding, interest rate.
Between credit card companies, finance companies and the banks, the interest they extract yearly would put all the space billionaires to shame.
Ahh, so as an American my only option is cash. 😔
I don't have much experience with American cards. I know debit cards are more common down there. Do they have the same merchant fees?
See, not using Google Pay is something even I, a non-Canadian, European person can do. doingmypart.jpg!
It's been convenient to use my phone to tap and pay for things. But like, only slightly more than pulling out my debit card. Just got a new minimalistic wallet with a card ejector too so it's kinda fun to use.
I’m on board for this but this proposal is up against a familiar devil: the network effect.
Shops support Visa and Mastercard because customers use them, customers use them because shops support them. This creates a powerful network that is extremely difficult for an upstart to unseat.
So while it’s a good idea to encourage people to take individual action on this — and you’re doing a great job doing so, and I’m taking it to heart for my own actions — we also need to accompany this with a policy solution to help overcome the network effect.
You're right and the network effect would be very hard to overcome for this. It would need a lot of media attention just like liquor and alcohol.
I whipped this up too.
This is super cool. And you’ve inspired this Canadian to start moving more payments to Interac. Love the message and I’m on board.
My suggestion to accompany this with policy is not an alternative to taking personal action, but complementary.
One piece of constructive feedback on the artwork— it might be helpful to stress the positive aspect front and centre. For example lead with Interac with a maple leaf, and the American systems in lower prominence by having them 2/3 sized and positioned below.
Please don’t misconstrue my feedback in your mind as an attempt to distract or demoralize you through bike-shedding or anything like that. You’re doing great stuff and it’s inspiring.
You have a point when it comes to online shopping (although I'd call it a simple monopoly), but there's no such effect at physical stores. Interac and cash are already universally accepted, people can stop using visa/mastercard right now and not even have to think about it. Just grab a different card when you leave the house.
Needs to be a solution for those of us who are housebound and/or rural. Online is our only option.
You’re correct that it’s a monopoly, but the point I’m trying to make is that because of the network effect the monopoly will be difficult to unseat without accompanying policy.
For this to work, Interac needs to incentivize using it like credit cards do.
All types of loans require a credit score of some kind, and credit cards are one of the best ways to build this. Additionally, credit cards usually offer some kind of return.
Also because of poverty, a lot of people have a dependency on credit or payment plans.
Interac needs to make a Canadian answer to the credit card.
You can get a line of credit from your local bank, tranfser the available funds into your checking account on demand, then use your Interac card. The amount and rates are variable, so you can start with a small amount with a high rate (like starter credit cards), and as you build a reputation, you can be loaned larger amounts at a better rate. No third party credit card company required.
There's absolutely a way, for sure, I just mean it's gonna be difficult to get most people on board until there is an option just as or more convenient than the current one.
Mileage may vary, but in my experience in attempting to get a line of credit, theres a lot more information that needs to be not only shared (for the banks and credit unions I’ve tried applying to, both and credit card statements for the last 3 months needed to be shared, along with a written explanation on what I’d need a line of credit for).
The barrier to approval is rather high as well, especially if you don’t have any assets to provide as collateral (for a secured line of credit at least.)
It’s doubly a challenge if you don’t have a “good enough” net worth as well which if you’re out of school and had to take out student loans, then you’re already starting out with negative net worth.
In comparison, I was blanketly approved for multiple credit cards and all I had to provide was the necessary identifying information and a salary.
It sounds like I’m shooting down the option of getting a line of credit, but it can be a very difficult process to obtain one unless you can get a guarantor to co-sign, or you happen to be in a financially secured position to begin with, which isn’t the case for a lot of people, but still a very good option to attempt at getting.
I’ve given up taking visa / Amex / Mastercard. My business now only accepts Interac e-transfer and cash.
Interac is hands down the most secure way to pay for something. I never have to take a card from a customer, the customer never has to take on additional debt, the money is automatically deposited into my account within seconds, and it costs me absolutely no money to do this and I have to pay no money to a merchant to make it happen.
I wish I could do this at more places.
I have never yet had a problem challenging and reversing a charge made to my credit card. Their fraud detection also seems to be superior. On the other hand, members of my family have had to jump through hoops when challenging fraudulent Interac transactions. They have felt like they are being seen as the more likely perpetrator, and meanwhile the money is no longer in their account while the process drags out. Very stressful.
In general, I prefer using cash because of less information being generated, but I agree that we shouldn't pretend that CCs don't also have advantages (if you're not one to rack up debt). Smaller purchases where carrying cash is reasonable? Absolutely. Larger purchases where you need some insurance? CC.
The other day I made a purchase at a store and noticed I was charged for something I didn't buy (not that something was charged twice, it was an entirely foreign item that wasn't even physically there). The transaction had to be voided and then re-done. The cashier and the manager (who was needed to void the tx) both said it was good I had paid by credit instead of debit because it's a lot harder even for them to return money via debit. I have no idea why, and neither did they.
Some years ago, Air Canada's system said I didn't pay for my flight when I tried to check in. But I was already on the manifest and had already been assigned a seat. How could I possibly have an assigned seat if I hadn't paid? The desk agent was sympathetic but could not overrule the system, so I had to pay again for the seat that was already assigned to me. Air Canada could not refund the original payment because I supposedly had never paid it in the first place. I had to use a chargeback to get my money back. If not for CC chargeback, I would have lost that money entirely.
I have a cash back VISA card. The week after Jan 20, I pulled my card info off every online service I use, stopped using the card entirely, and a few days ago canceled it completely. It was a tough choice. I generally earned about $600 a year cash back, but it's time to free ourselves of America and forge our own path. I don't really see the Can/American relationship ever being repaired at this point. Time to move on.
Just like tipping, a percentage system makes no sense. It's the exact same work to bring me a $50 meal vs a $500 one. And for payment processing, a flat fee makes much more sense because there's no difference in processing a $100 transaction vs a $10,000 one.
So why does a percentage-based system persist? Because workers want higher wages (understandable when restaurants refuse to pay them more and expect the customer to pay part of their income). And for giant corporations like Visa and MasterCard, it's literally never enough for them. They can make more money, so that's the only reason. It's so dumb...
Nationalize them! Bring this back under societal control and eliminate that tax.
Then SpaceX, Twitter, and Amazon.
Of course this assumes we defeat the fascists and fix the Supreme Court first.
I think this is spoken from the point of view of an American? Canada can't nationalize American companies...
Canada could however fund its own federal credit system to compete and add a big fat tariff on MC and Visa tx's if they wanted to force people to adopt it rapidly.
This is a brilliant strategy. Thank you for sharing that.
Please understand that there are also many third party card processors. That is the company that takes the transaction from the merchant to the payment system. The payment system then takes the transaction to the bank.
Don't be discouraged, but someone may need to become card processors to vendors.
Pressure on Visa and MasterCard may work, but the boycott will need to overcome license fees.
It's not in any way a tax. It's a fee you pay for a service you wish to use. It's as much a tax as the money spent on a doughnut is a tax.
The rest of your idea is great. Wish I had access to something like that.
At least you can see a tax on your receipt. Visa, MasterCard and so on all have in their contracts with businesses that you can't tell the customers how much it costs.
I call it a tax because the charge is a percentage of the transaction instead of a flat fee. The fact that Interac can charge a flat fee shows that it is possible.
The "tax" is only accepted because consumers can't see it, and then we're offered rewards like the percent cash back. That's our own damn money they're rewarding us with!
I've known some methane who claim that they also have a flat fee, even from visa and MasterCard. So it can certainly be done.
I have the same question as sloppychops. If my interac debit card is also Visa, how would I know whether the payment terminal is routing through Visa or Interac?
I am one who offers to pay in cash sometimes to small businesses, treating it like an additional tip. But more and more businesses in the Vancouver area use Clover (A Canadian subsidiary owned by Wells Fargo) and Square (American fintech), and either take card only (which they get their cut with Interac debit too), or the staff get a little impatient when I rummage around for cash in my wallet.
I checked my bank for that recently. If you tap or use your PIN in Canada, it's Interac. Everything else is VISA.