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We warned the people who sat home on election day about project 2025 and yet they covered their ears and enabled all of this.
And Democrats were warned that they need to stop putting their thumbs on the scale to push the most dog shit candidates that don't promise anything that will help the working class. Fascism happens when democracy is unresponsive to the needs of the working class, and for the last 50 years Democrats have just been great at finding excuses for why they can't do something. Do you think Trump will listen to the parliamentarian if they disagree with something?
Fuck, Democrats have even been voting for his cabinet picks, despite claiming Trump is a fascist. They all voted to confirm Marco Rubio.
And voters were warned with years of inaction that they needed to start being more engaged.
The reason we have so many shit candidates is because people don't show up for the real ones.
"The purpose of a system is what it does". If our system consistently produces shit candidates, shit policies, shit results and demoralizes voters... Then we have a shit system and nothing will ever improve until we demand a modern multiparty democracy with proportional representation and safe guards against fascism.
Multiparty democracy would be fantastic but that's a goal if we make it through this crisis. A more realistic (yet still fanciful) plan would be to destroy the Democratic party and create something new from the ashes. First past the post is here to stay for a long time.
Going to one of the many forms of preferential voting/ Ranked Choice Voting would work. That both major parties vehemently oppose changing first past the post should tell you that such a change would be effective in breaking their power.
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's easier to destroy the Democrats and replace them than fix FPTP voting.
“The purpose of a system is what it does”.
This is certainly a viewpoint, but I don't necessarily agree when people state it as if it's a foregone conclusion.
Starve the beast exists. They purposefully cripple these systems, and if you were to adhere to that statement, then it means that we should do away with the systems altogether because they're currently broken (read: sabotaged).
That is a bad take imo
Someone responded to me with this a while back. The purpose of a system is what it does. I shot back some shit, but then I thought about it. They're right. The purpose of a system is what it does. It became clear to me. It literally does not matter in the real world what the creators of a system say it is for. The purpose of the system is what it does.
I mean... no. The purpose of the Department of Education has been very clear. Just because they fire a shitload of people, and make it so they cannot perform their function for the time being, does not mean that the purpose of the Department has changed.
The purpose remains, the Department just needs to be fixed so that it can continue to serve its purpose.
This is how I used to think. But we need to simplify things in order to approach them with appropriate action. The original purpose of USAID, NOAA, Department of Education, those don't matter at the moment. It's hard to articulate, but when you get down to it, the purpose of the system is what it does. No, over arching beliefs, vision, or plans from the founders will not work right now. The purpose of a system is what it does.
I don't want to argue with you anymore comrade. Please give a read to the link. Just a few days ago I would have had the same response as you.
I believe that's wrong, sorry. At least in the case of government agencies. Maybe it applies to other types of systems, and maybe it even applied to government agencies prior to Trump's actions, but no. Not anymore at least. I feel like maybe you don't understand how government agencies are structured and how they function if you believe it's that simple and lacking in nuance.
These agencies are not monoliths. There are still people working in the Department of Education, career bureaucrats, experts in their specific field, that are still working toward the stated goals of the Department of Education. They will continue to do so until they're forced to stop. Capitulating and just admitting defeat, just because the fascists that have seized power have made those goals far more difficult to achieve, is exactly what they want you to do. Don't fall for the trap.
I hear you. What I'm advocating does veer into philosophy when what we need is action. I don't claim to know every nuance of these bureaucracies, but I have worked within them, as a civilian. I do understand that this pump action shotgun approach to surgery is absurd. Believe me, you and I are on the same team here!
I don't advocate admitting defeat at all. In fact I think everyone 'resigning in protest ' right now is just taking the easy way out. I do hope for an end to this madness, but it seems like the train's just left the station.
What I'm advocating is an approach to systems theory, nothing more. Stay safe in the months ahead.
cool... still you're wrong.
the Department just needs to be fixed so that it can continue to serve its purpose.
All this means is "don't give up." You acknowledge it's not serving its purpose right now, it's serving some other purpose.
Democrats were warned
So, the litmus test of this logic is this: Do we blame the opposition for the Nazi party? Should we start doing that too after 80 years?
It's a concurrence. Who do you blame for the rise of the nazi party: the nazis who kept rigging the deck in their favor and sowing discord, the conservatives who enabled them, the ineffective social democrats whom people were disillusioned with, the people who held out against voting for them, or the people who basically were screaming at the latter three to do fucking something.
With the amount of screaming and championing that the Dems have ignored I refuse to believe it's incompetence or ignorance. This is wilful and active support for the party they claim they're in opposition to.
Cool but I'm actually asking who you blame in the 1930s. In the 2020s I think the dems loved the idea of opposing Trump when they thought it was easy and not when they didn't. But i can also see scenarios in which they acted how they did while hating the whole situation
It’s a concurrence. Who do you blame for the rise of the nazi party: the nazis who kept rigging the deck in their favor and sowing discord, the conservatives who enabled them, the ineffective social democrats whom people were disillusioned with, the people who held out against voting for them, or the people who basically were screaming at the latter three to do fucking something.
Yup, in other words post WW1 German society as a whole. People don't get to blame Dems without laying blame on themselves as part of this present society.
The antifascists are the only ones who weren't partly to blame. But also on a scale of who's most to blame, it's the nazis.
on a scale of who’s most to blame, it’s the nazis.
yup. that's my point, sometimes users on Lemmy (and other left-leaning sites) imply that Dems are much more to blame than trumpists. Ultimately it's the people who voted for trump and then the people stayed at home, and then the Democrats.
They're not an opposition. They famously will not act like one. They're complicit. After this loss and the lack of resistance I'm done. I've canvassed and fought for Dems for almost two decades and I could count our number of "Wins" on one hand. What a colossal waste of my time and effort.
Dems/Reps aren't the same because they're just as bad as each other, they're bad because they're both on the same team. The Dems had multiple chances to stop this and actively chose not to. It was a trolly problem with no one on the other tracks.
We have no opposition party lmao. Was it worth it for Harris to throw the election by siding with Israel? Neoliberals are also fascist.
We need to move forward and this histrionic blathering is a distraction.
I'm talking about shit that's happening right now, if the party had changed I wouldn't be bringing it up. To move forward, the Democrats need to change leadership to people who will fight for their constituents instead of pointing fingers at them for 'not voting hard through', never mind that for most people outside swing states their presidential votes don't even matter to begin with.
The party and the media spent years telling people that Biden was fine to run even though everyone with eyes could see he was declining, they made sure there was no competitive primary and then parachuted in a candidate that dropped out before Iowa when she last ran for President. And after this whole exercise, they're still surprised the electorate doesn't trust them despite being lied to for years about this and a bunch of other stuff.
I still think Trump actually is a terrible candidate, Democrats just consistently manage to find worse candidates on their side.
Democrats just consistently manage to find worse candidates on their side.
Harris would have beat Trump if she promised to fight for universal healthcare or free college. Or if she had simply not sprinted to the right by wanting to build Trump's wall and promising to put Republicans in her cabinet. It was honestly impressive how hard Harris worked to throw the election.
She probably would've done better if she hadn't done that and put some distance between her and Biden, but obviously that's tricky when you were actually part of the admin. When I say she was the worse candidate I don't really mean her personally, it's more about what the electorate was looking for, which means more of an outsider who was willing to say how things could've been handled better by the previous administration instead of saying everything's great.
Blah blah blah. Lemmy has an endless supplying armchair political experts. The what the dems did done wrong has been covered endlessly. You contribute nothing. You are a distraction. You benefit Trump and musk. And the more you and your ilk do this the more it benefits them.
The brigading that occurs every time I mention this not matter how I phrase it is very telling. The spread of this message of hopelessness is your goal.
Just keep on punching left instead of focusing on the fascists. It worked out for Weimar Germany after all.
Literally saying to stop the internal fighting and you're claiming I'm the one doing. This always feels like talking to right wing projectionist.
I didn't know you ran the DCCC? I'm talking about Democratic leadership, not about what us random posters said.
Neither do you. Nothing we say or do here changes the democratic leadership.
We need to focus on what we can do now. Stay in the present moment.
This is not some random idea I've come up with and the push back I get over it is fucking bonkers.
The division is the point
And Democrats were warned that they need to stop putting their thumbs on the scale to push the most dog shit candidates that don’t promise anything that will help the working class.
what about biden? Dude was pretty popular with blue collar workers, and pushed a lot of good relevant legislation.
Fascism happens when democracy is unresponsive to the needs of the working class
this is factually, not fascism, i feel like im speaking with nazis trying to "subvert" the normie population and "enlighten" them or whatever the fuck groypers do.
You're either purposely misunderstanding my post, or just obtuse. I'm saying fascists get elected when democracy fails to solve people's problems, not that that unresponsiveness is fascism itself. Look at Weimar Germany and Italy.
to be clear, what you said is an extremely obtuse way to say that "people elect fascists when they want a fascist"
people are acting like it's some fucking new world order plot to overthrow the US government with fascism, but like actually, a bunch of idiots with the ability to vote did it.
also, if you wanted to make that statement more generally accurate, "fascism happens when the people feel that traditional government has failed them" since fascism tends to be primarily opportunist by nature.
I was told by a coworker, just after election day, that Project 2025 was just propaganda, and that "Democrats have their own propaganda too you know..."
Shit left me speechless. I was just like, let's revisit this conversation in three months.
mine were like yea but the price of eggs
I assure you we now talk about the price of eggs, inflation, and job security daily
and by that I mean I talk at them while they pretend it is all fine
It's a really interesting time right now to talk to them about those egg prices.
I know they're going to stick their fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA BIDEN" but you can't stop.
Seriously, we're in this mess because they wore us down so we stopped engaging. START ENGAGING AGAIN. We have to make this uncomfortable for them, all of them, they have to identify the correct source of this discomfort too. Stop caring if they scream or whine or threaten to not associate with you or ANYTHING else. We have to start getting some thicker fucking skin.
You know all that shit you see on your feed "Epic leftist DESTROYS prominent conservative!" and it's some select clip of a talk show or interview? You know all those smug "leopards ate their faces" posts that make it look like the right broadly is suffering under its own folly and we all just need to sit back and chuckle?
IT'S ALL BULLSHIT. NONE OF THAT MEANS ANYTHING. We are in the most danger of losing America than we've EVER been in since the revolutionary war itself. The right is NOT running scared, they're not worried, they're not suffering. Not yet at least.
They're celebrating in the streets because they think they're winning. Your TASK, each of you, is to make sure that when it starts really hurting, when their social services dry up, when their VA checks bounce, when their childcare subsidies are revoked, when their food stamps are canceled... is to draw for them a direct line between who they fucking voted for, and what they've lost.
You might think this sounds stupid and obvious, and that's the same conditioning that made you think we were going to win. Don't be naive. Build communities. Get informed. Get in people's fucking faces and who CARES if you get attacked, insulted, hit, screamed at or filmed? What TRULY do we have to lose when we're on the verge of losing everything?
Yell it from the roof tops.
I tried that and now I'm posting to Lemmy from one of the new camps.
So did you revisit that conversation?
Because I've heard that exact sentence from my buddy, who is from Eastern Europe - still talking about the US. Where did they get that info, I will never know.
I've tried... They do not seem interested.
To be fair, we have a hybrid WFH system, I haven't seen the guy in a few weeks, and I only mentioned it to him once via text. I think I will be spending some time with him next week, so I'll probably bring it up then.
I voted for Harris out of harm reduction with a funeral dirge in my heart yet again voting for neoliberal scum that sold out the country to the corpo Fascists lock step with Republicans for decades, but is this the resistance from now on, or will we eventually stop scolding what is now the past hoping it will change the present or future?
Because it won't. You can't shame his voters, Republicans have been immune to shame since Reagan, and scolding the low information "I'm not political, teehee when's football/Reality Show crap on" people who haven't had anything at all to vote FOR, only against the greater evil for the last 50 years will only make them roll their eyes and remain disengaged.
Either foment hot revolution starting with destroying the capital markets, steal the DNC with a socialist populist as trump did as a fascist populist to the RNC, or back a socialist Party. Everything else is masturbation on a sinking ship with the capitalists tearing new holes every day.
Because either under neoliberals or Fascists, the capitalists are unrestrained. And if the capitalists remain unrestrained, the planet WILL burn in our lifetimes for all of humanity effectively forever, as millions of years is forever to our little monkey brains.
There are microplastics in my kids' brains, but by God let's not slow down fracking in Pennsylvania.
Love your username.
I understand you're hurt and concerned right now, with good reason. That said, to get out of this we need to be objective about how we got here.
Blaming our current situation just on people who didn't vote is not taking into account the whole picture. Yes, if non voters had shown up at the polls and voted Harris then Trump wouldn't have won. Also if people who voted for Trump had not shown up, then Harris would have won. If people who voted Trump had voted Harris, she would have won. So?
WHY do people act the way they do? Because of the candidates. Because of the parties. Because of the information they encounter. Because of the entrenched interests that have created a low quality of life, and led people to believe that nothing will change, and that they can't trust what "elites" say.
Does that make the current situation any better? No. But it at least hints at possible avenues to go down, ways things could be improved. Saying "we told them, but they didn't listen" implies there's not much action that can be taken, just relaying information beforehand, and scolding after.
Was it worth it for Harris and the dems to throw the election by standing with Israel? Neoliberals are also fascist.
Israel is so pro-Trump that they're giving him Gaza. Pull your head out of your ass.
Neoliberalism is also fascism. You need an actual opposition party if you want change.
You need an actual opposition party if you want change.
Don't worry, you're gonna see the difference soon, one party wanted to relieve education debt, the other one is gonna put you and your loved ones in a cage.
tough to distinguish these nuances I'm sure....
im sure you guys would've voted for them if the israel thing didn't happen, surely you wouldn't have just complained about like, capitalism, or like, liberalism, or something.
so you stayed home and let dipshit donnie win because you didn't get your way.
nice fucking job.
If dems wanted to win why didnt they run on healthcare for all? Student loans? Housing?
You got played.
the sad thing is, you're gonna realize in a few months when shit goes off the rails, you had a choice, and because you wanted to be a pouty, whiney little bitch, whose exact and unrelenting demands must be met entirely or you're gonna have a tantrum, you couldn't mitigate the worst by participating in democracy.
Ideally, of course, we would have elected Bernie in 2016. ideally. Gore in 2000 (stolen). Carter in 80 (stolen, reagan worked with the fucking iranians), or Nixon in 68 (again, stolen, worked to avoid a peace deal with the north and keep the war going).
Ideally, lots of other things would have changed.
I don't know where the fuck you live, but here in reality, the ideal rarely presents itself.
Fact is, you got to pile up the ideal shit in your life in one hand, and the absolute EXCREMENT the right wants in the other, and see which fills up first sparky. Why didn't we run on healthcare for all? Student loans?
holy shit you're dense, or a strawman, because biden's record is better than anyone else you could point to.
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/13/biden-student-loan-debt-forgiven.html
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2025/bidens-public-health-wins
https://www.protectourcare.org/fact-sheet-president-bidens-health-care-legacy-is-a-bfd/
I got played? you ignorant twit, you betrayed a generation, nice fucking work.