Update: So I dug around a little deeper, and found that
- @dessalines@lemmy.ml is /u/parentis_shotgun on Reddit. Source: https://archive.is/Ky9vd
- /u/parentis_shotgun moderates some subreddits, including r/InformedTankie, r/asktankies, r/GunZedong. Source: https://www.reddit.com/user/parentis_shotgun
- /u/parentis_shotgun got banned from r/socialism for "refuting the 'China is genociding Uyghurs'". Source: https://archive.is/CwFZC
- /u/parentis_shotgun then launched lemmy. Source: https://archive.is/132fW
On another topic, there are rumors circulating that we are fascists or supported genocide. These claims are completely false, and like most viral twitter threads, are coming from a single Mastodon user on a personal vendetta who didn’t provide any sources. Such slander doesn’t deserve any response and is best left ignored.
- Previous discussion on the moderation policy on lemmy.ml including response from @dessalines@lemmy.ml : Expressing concerns about moderation policy on lemmy.ml
- Accusation of a Mastodon user (probably the one they are referring to): https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
- Essays from @dessalines@lemmy.ml: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md
Update: More info about @dessalines@lemmy.ml
I don't agree with these views at all, but I don't agree with the view that no one should use lemmy because of the opinions of the developers. Its an open-source project, just don't use anything hosted by them. Like I don't support the US military, but that doesn't stop me from using the internet.
One sore point there is that the code comes by default with a donation link (the heart at the top) to join-lemmy.org. Even without the tankie issue it should rather go to a page local to the instance explaining donation options, and the default should be "The admin didn't set this up, if you urgently need to get rid of money here's a link to Doctors without Borders".
OTOH there's now a huge influx of people including tons of developers so I expect tankie influence to be drowned out sooner than later.
This is just it. Software is software. You can spin your own instance and moderate it as you wish. It's open source, so you can change and modify it.
But right now they're asking for donations to run their instance and help with their code.So before you donate money and your time/expertise/code - it's probably a good idea to know who is asking for it. It's not entirely clear, to be honest.
Exactly. I probably don't agree on everything with 100% of developers of the tool out there. I don't want creators of technological tools (or anyone for that matter) to be subject to purity of ideology and opinion tests. I didn't want Brendan Eich gone from Mozilla nor anyone else gone from the tools they develop.
Neither of those show the claimed genocide denial/support.
I was wrong, yes there is:
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md#whats-going-on-with-the-uyghursThere's also these:
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or
(google cache since the site is down) https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KNky1TdNscwJ:https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=firefox-b-dAnd I believe there's some allegations of them hosting the lemmygrad.ml instance, which is basically full on tankie home.
Basically, they don't think Uyghur genocide happened, they don't think Stalin did anything wrong and they love Xi.
And now they're asking for your money
Sure, I think the tankie and extremely pro-CCP/Kremlin views expressed by the developers and lemmygrad server members are outright dumb. But I do appreciate that they leave room for all of us of differing views to exist without constantly clashing, by creating this federated system.
You know you've done well when you've made something that's bigger than yourself and your own interests.
Is there any actual proof of this? I have seen it repeated over and over and over, but I have yet to see literally anyone provide receipts.
There was some more info posted in another comment: https://beehaw.org/comment/318333
Sorry if I didn't provide sufficient proof, depends on which aspect you would have liked me to clarify on?
tankie views: essays on github by the main developers I'm not trying to argue right or wrong in this comment, just to show these are texts representing the beliefs held by the lead developer.
Tankie moderation: Orientalism stipulated as reason for comment rule and ban on a Ukraine-related thread
Creating something bigger than themselves: From open sourcing lemmy, and structuring lemmy in a way that gives liberty for instance owners to rule as they please.
For all the issues with the lemmy developers (and they're completely valid, though I'm not as familiar with the ins and outs of the discourse given how new I am to the fediverse) I appreciate their candor. I guess part of it is just that I'm used to corporate speak when receiving website updates and what not, but as long as they're receptive to changes that the platform needs and continue to make the platform more stable, safer, and more feature-rich, it's nice having a home on the fediverse run by genuine people, even if they're people I'm not the most aligned with ideally -- to be charitable
It's so refreshing having a statement written by two people, instead of a board of lawyers.
It seems to have become a habit that most good things about the internet is linked to the EU. I'm really grateful. That being said, I hope that Lemmy can become a collaborative project uniting a lot of devs rather than rely on two people.
About the scandal; as long as their opinions do not influence the platform I don't see them as relevant to Lemmy. If they are illegal, let justice do its work.
While I agree with the first part, I think the last sentence is a really really bad take. What is and isn't illegal depends very much on governments and is usually pretty arbitrary. And especially leftists get persecuted overly harshly in many countries of the global north. So even though I don't agree with the views of the two Lemmy devs, I don't wish "justice" on anyone.
Yes, good point. It's more like: we as a society must decide what is and isn't acceptable as far as free speech goes and enshrine this in law. Then it is a matter of applying the laws rather than judging case by case as individuals.
In this case, The political discourse of the devs doesn't seem directly related to Lemmy's development. Of course, libre software is very much in line with leftist ideology; what I mean is that they do not seem to impose their views or skew ours through their work as devs. They don't even use their position as devs to publicize their discourse; people had to dig to find them.
If their political discourse is harmful, I'd argue that it is not to us, as individuals, to condemn them and to choose an adequate punishment, e.g. boycott the seemingly unrelated Lemmy project.
Of course, it is obviously to us, as individuals, to decide if we want to participate on Lemmy, or even donate to the devs for their work on Lemmy. I choose to do both even when I don't agree with the devs and when I think their discourse about human right in the CCP and Russia might be harmful.
On another topic, there are rumors circulating that we are fascists or supported genocide. These claims are completely false, and like most viral twitter threads, are coming from a single Mastodon user on a personal vendetta who didn’t provide any sources.
My "Not involved in genocide denial" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt
To Dessalines it's not genocide because they had it coming, so it's all internally consistent
This update, specifically how funding is happening, helped me understand some of the reasoning behind the narrow focus of the Lemmy developers. I appreciate them foregoing their regular paychecks to work on stability. Hopefully things settle down soon to the point that the extra eyes and hands on the project are more helpful than they are distracting.
I'm really enjoying Lemmy to be honest. A decentralized platform rekindles the feeling of internet forums and the excitement of finding something new in each community. Seeing such a candid report from the developers is nice as well and reaffirms my decision to stay, regardless of reddit's decisions or direction as a platform.
Keep up the great work everyone involved!
Agreed, it feels a lot more intimate and the growing pains are honestly not that bad
This posted twice. You might want to delete one.
Thanks for the link. I don't know the story, but I find it interesting that these two devs are essentially being sponsored to develop Lemmy. What sort of incentive does the sponsor have for funding this development?
This project was funded through the NGI0 Discovery Fund, a fund established by NLnet with financial support from the European Commission's Next Generation Internet programme, under the aegis of DG Communications Networks, Content and Technology under grant agreement No 825322.
Source: https://nlnet.nl/project/Lemmy/
Duplicate comment.
I do appreciate the transparency from the Lemmy devs and re their views (whether only alleged or actual) on controversial topics, I think the issue is not in the software itself and in how the devs themselves are using it. However given the nature of the fediverse and how Lemmy is programmed, you can use the software however you like, as we do here on Beehaw.
Similarly, we can look to the "death of the author" debate to settle this. I'm not going to discuss what that is and what it isn't here (as that isn't the purpose of this post or this comment), however, I will state that my definition of "death of the author" involves critically enjoying a piece of media despite its author's bad views if and only if those views aren't inherent to the work and they aren't profiting off of my consumption of the work itself. Beehaw is like that. Sure the creators of the software are involved in a controversy, but the way the devs use their own software is not an inherent feature of the software. Beehaw has a fantastic setup and ethos, so I find my home here. Sure, there's not that many specific communities, but that's what federation is for.
Another analogy, however accurate (no analogy is perfect): people lobby governments with money to get them to pass problematic legislation, but people still participate in the economy.
note on that analogy because I feel it needs saying
Yes, I know that participating in the economy, especially in the United States where I live but really anywhere is a bit necessary to, well, exist most places if not everywhere, but people unknowingly support controversial people all the time. See Nestle and their controversies. Even bringing that up reminds me of the illusion of choice and how everything is owned by five companies (and even then mostly everything is owned by like two VC groups). I'm digressing, of course, but I hope you see my point in bringing this up.
TL;DR: The way the devs use the software should not impede our use of the software given that the devs' views are not inherent to any use case of the software.
I agree with the first part. I completely fail to see how the analogy at the end applies. Capitalists and their corporations lobby the government to pass legislation that directly fucks the economy to make it worse for working-class people who use it (and, in fact, depend on it for their basic survival). So it's much, much more like Reddit where people have to use the one corporate system that exploits and oppresses them than like someone developing a piece of FOSS software that other people can use independently. In fact, if you try to build a separate economy, the state's violent enforcers (police and/or military, depending on the context) will come in and abuse and murder you and tear apart your independent economy and force people back into the fold.
My point with including thr analogy about the economy was to say, in essence, "people do bad things with money all the time yet we still use it," although, again, I will bring up how this isn't a good analogy because of our reliance on capital to obtain things like healthcare, food, and housing.
Wonderfully put, couldn't have said it better myself.
I hope after a year i will forget what reddit was.
Same tbh
You’ll forget what what was?
Thanks for sharing! Great project. Think I'll head over and donate 😊
Wow they went from 1 user to 27. It feels like way more than 27 people
(I'm aware of what they meant, but it's incorrect in English)
