Anon doesn't know what she's doing wrong

In the unlikely event a woman reads this.

We are stupid creatures. Be direct. I reiterate, we are stupid. Or scared of being labeled a creep. Same result.

So, be direct.

Here is the thing, this is terrible flirting. Men are not clueless or dumb. We have been told by women that a woman looking at us or smiling at us or being nice to us is not her flirting. It is her being nice because society has told women they have to be that way all the time. So now women have to use their adult voices and actually say what they want and actually flirt back.
- Well, some of us are also clueless when it comes to reading female interest, or were at an earlier point in life
- Hands down, some of us are just deaf to flirting. Because it's portrayed as so much more uncommon that a Girl flirts with a Guy. You are 100% right. But I've seen dudes getting hit on with a Baseball bat, and they were like "Whaaat? You sure?!" I tried to help a Girl Friend of mine out to set her up with another friend of mine. Bro was dumb as a Golden Retriever but twice as loyal. And now they are going steady for years.
- this is terrible flirting
  
  Absolutely.
  
  Men are not clueless
  
  A LOT of us are, though..
  
  smiling at us or being nice to us is not her flirting. It is her being nice because society has told women they have to be that way all the time.
  
  Usually correct, though sometimes it IS and other times it's just her being nice voluntarily. Such is the mysteries of interpersonal interaction!
  
  women have to use their adult voices
  
  Boo! Adulting sucks! /j
Not sure if stupid is the word I’d use, but we tend not to pick up on subtlety very well.

Paraphrasing from memory a comment I saw in a similar thread on a different site:

What’s subtle to you is entirely invisible to him

What’s obvious to you is still mostly invisible to him

What’s embarrassingly obvious to you is just starting to become subtle and therefore potentially noticeable to him

We don’t have nearly as much practice on picking up subtlety, and many of us are well aware of the potential blowback of perceiving interest and acting on it (“ew gross i’m just being nice you creep”).

We aren’t mind readers. Frankly, if I was a mindreader, I wouldn’t be hanging out on Lemmy. I’d be hanging out in the casino at the poker tables.
- Obtuse is the word you're looking for
- Eh, I usually pick up on relatively subtle cues, I just have trouble interpreting them. I can tell they're flirting, I just don't know if they're doing it because they're interested in me, or they just want something from me (better service, helpful directions, or material to laugh about later w/ friends). So even if I pick up on it, I'm unlikely to actually act differently until I have verbal confirmation.
  
  This causes some issues w/ my wife, so I try to reassure her that I understand she's frustrated or whatever, but that I'm unsure what she's expecting me to do about it (is she looking to vent or does she want me to problem-solve). This occasionally pisses her off (why can't you tell what I want?!?), but she usually realizes that I have a valid reason to be confused and is more direct after a bit of time thinking about it.
  
  Communication is absolutely key in any kind of relationship, and that goes both ways. I don't think I'm autistic (wouldn't be surprised if I'm at the mild end of the spectrum though), but I do appreciate confirmation of certain social cues.
- I am not a mind-reader, but if you were a mind-reader, I would think you'd have a better ROI hanging out in the gallery of Congress
- I think stupid pretty descriptive. I have not once but twice regularly slept with a woman and not get it.
  
  The first I consider kinda excusable because I was 18. We hung out and just somehow naturally transitioned into having sex. We never really talked about it and I didn't question it because at 18 you don't question free pussy. It went on for months and then we just drifted apart. I thought she met someone else and left it at that. Years later I found out she was expecting something more but didn't know how to move forward with me so she moved on.
  
  The second however. I was is my late twenties and should've known better. We met on Tinder, she was quick to get in bed and I was quick to get in bed and so quickly in bed we got. This time we "had the talk" to make sure this is just sex and we're not looking for anything more. Months go by and we're hooking up almost daily. We start hanging out a bit more, she starts staying over etc etc. Eventually a year and a half passes and I haven't given a single thought to our situation, so out of the blue she's "we can't continue like this". And I'm just puzzled because I have no idea what we're talking about. So she said that she was always a bit into me and it just grew and grew and now she wants more. In hindsight it's obvious but I was completely oblivious the entire time.
  
  So we are stupid. I could be balls deep in some pussy and not know if they're actually into me. I'm so oblivious I told my wife "no hints, no roundabouts. If you have an issue you tell it to me straight because I do not understand anything less than straight".
Hello. I'm a woman. And I'm also a dumbass who thinks she has no shot with pretty much anyone. Plus I'm easily embarrassed.

Plus if I'm interested I'm like "Ugh i don't want to be a creep who'd approach someone for their looks", projecting because I get uncomfortable if someone finds me attractive, completely ignoring in the moment that if you don't do that you'll never get to know the person.

This behaviour makes no sense. Just wanted to reassure(?) you that guys don't have a monopoly on stupidity.
I wouldn't even say it's men being stupid for the most part (everyone is stupid sometimes of course) but most men are having anxiety or other social problems AND a lot of them are afraid they come off as a creep. Unfortunately it's usually the ones that will almost never be creepy, but that's just how it is.

So yeah I totally agree, being direct is good, and also trying to pay attention to what men do over what they say, because we find the worst ways to express the best things often and that shit can be confusing. If you're not sure, you can always revert to directly asking them and most men will be honest.

But yeah, seems like there's a slow shift from men actively pursuing over to the whole thing being genderless. Some people are pursuing, and some are being pursued. I think it's a good change, because no matter the gender, usually the way to pursue someone is very similar and I think all the gender roles in all of this just enforce traditions that cease to be healthy.
- most people don't have anxiety or other social problems, only the terminally online do
Nah, most women I met are just as bad in flirting as men. It is has to do with the personality and attraction.

If one finds the other attractive there is not much you can do wrong. If one finds the other one not attractive there is not much you can do right.
More accurately, we don't get hints.
- Iv been hit in it the past by her asking me if I want to go to a bar with her friends?
  
  How was I meant to interrupt "me and my friends" as intimate?
aaaaaaaand unnecessarily gendered

I'm a gal looking for gals. I hate flirting because it never did me well and all I get from this is usually rejection. I know I am doing it bad but this is the way I am: a shitty flirter.

That could be the same with any man, woman, dog, cat, robot, anyone in fact. This is certainly not depending on gender whatsoever
It’s so weird. Half of y’all will pull the earbuds out of our ears on the subway to shoot your shot and the other half will be actively getting motorboated and wondering if we like you.

The second type of guy is perfect, by the way. You’re doing good, stay humble.
- the other half will be actively getting motorboated and wondering if we like you
  
  Once at a bar I had two women that I knew hug each other across the seat I was sitting in, with my head trapped between their chests. I didn't think anything of it (although I was attracted to both of them), but years later another friend told me that they were both into me and were having a sort of competition for months to see who could get with me first. They both lost, of course, thanks to my utter cluelessness.
- I'm really not
I'm male, but i can imagine that a woman might feel insecure too.

Look, if I catch you looking my way, I might even get the hint that you find me attractive, but I really need more context than that. I'm not going to proposition every woman that makes eye contact with me. The risk of misinterpreting something and coming across as a creep is way too high.

I'm not going to proposition every woman that makes eye contact with me.

You aren't the vast majority of men on 4chan who assume any woman that glances at them is hitting on them. That's why femanon is so confused at why her approach is failing.
- Glancing isn't even needed, physical proximity is also an indicator.

I saw this girl staring straight into my eyes. I almost told her Arch btw, but the memes told me not to.

jk, I tipped my fedora and said a passing hello. No room in life for a trad sub

Girls think looking at people indicates interest? How the hell am I meant to know that?

Please, use your words!

I always make hard eye contact because woman say that guys always look down at their boobs and I've caught myself doing that exact thing.

I actually do this as well because I've been told so much about guys looking at boobs when talking to women. I make extra effort to keep eye contact. So because of that I've been told "it's intense." That's from people that know me so that is probably the polite version.
- No matter what you do, it's wrong. Thus we revert to rule 1 and 2; be attractive
- You also have to break eye contact periodically. Body language is complex.
I find small breasts the most attractive, but sometimes large breasts are just so eye-catching that you can't not look at them, especially when a large proportion of the surface area is not covered. It's especially annoying to have women offended by this when it's not even my thing.
I feel like making hard eye contact would be creepy so I just don't look at women. Wow that sounds terrible, more I just look at the ground while walking and don't look at anyone. Hmmm, not sure that's an improvement...
You make it sound like the only two possible places to look at are their eyes and their chest. Hmm.
- I don't want anyone to learn about my foot fetish, which is why I just stare at my phone's home screen or at a nearby window.
  
  I think I'm starting to realize why I don't have a real social life.
- Well, it's hard to see their butt from the front...
- While I get the point you're trying to make, the only normal place to look at when talking to someone is their face, which is kinda small, and the two parts of the face that convey emotion are the eyes and mouth.
- In addition to things others have said in reply, maintaining eye contact is a direction given in speech and leadership classes. Looking at someone you are talking to shows interest, engagement, and respect. It would be weird in a different way if you were speaking to someone and just staring at their hands or staring off into space. It's not that there are two options, but if you're having a conversation with someone, it's normal to be looking at them.