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Lvxferre [he/him] @mander.xyz

In canvas 2025, what if we ganged up against the largest country flag, whichever it is?

[Idea] If you don't want to see huge flags taking space over actual drawings in the Canvas, pick the biggest flag that you can find to deface.

As long as a lot of people are doing that, the ones templating larger flags will be forced to reduce their layouts and give more room for actual drawings.

[Reasoning] When it comes to country flags, I think that the immense majority of the users can be split into four groups:

  1. The ones who don't want to see country flags at all.
  2. The ones who are OK with smaller flags, but don't want to see larger ones.
  3. The ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of space.
  4. The ones who want to see the whole canvas burning, like the void.

I'm myself firmly rooted into #1, but this idea is a compromise between #1, #2 and #4.

Typically #3 uses numbers (and/or bots) to seize a huge chunk of the canvas to their flags. Well, let's use numbers against it then. As long as #1, #2 and #4 are trying to wreck the same flag, we win.

[inb4]

But what about identity flags?

Not a problem. They're typically bands instead of thick squares, and people drawing them are fairly accommodating.

But what about [insert another thing]

Even if [thing] is a problem, it's probably minor in comparison with huge country flags.

What should be the template?

None. We don't need one, as long as everyone is working against the same large flag.

Just draw something of your choice over the flag, preferably over its iconic features.

But I'm not creative enough for that!

No matter how shitty your drawing is, it's probably still way more original than a country flag. So don't feel discouraged.

That said, you can always help someone else with their drawing. Or plop in some text. Or just void.

Why are you posting this now, you bloody Slowpoke?

I wish that I thought about this before Canvas 2024. But better later than never. (And better early by a year for Canvas 2025.)

EDIT: addressing on general grounds some whining from group #3 (the ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of the canvas space).

You do realise that this sort of "war against the largest flag" should benefit even you, as long as the biggest flag is not the one you're working with, right? Even for you, this makes the canvas a more even level field. Let us not forget that you love to cover other flags with your own.

70 comments

  • If you don't want to see flags, don't participate. Canvas is about people working together to create something and in my opinion, country flags have their place on there just as much as the endless brand logos, ponies and amongus crewmates.

    • If you don’t want to see flags, don’t participate.

      Or alternatively we [people who don't want to see larger flags seizing the space that should be taken by more meaningful stuff] can gather support to fight back within the rules of the Canvas, even if you found such a polite way to rephrase "if you don't like what we do, fuck off and don't play".

      And I'm not even saying here "don't post flags at all". I'm saying "cut the larger flags down to size".

      country flags have their place on there just as much as the endless brand logos, ponies and amongus crewmates.

      And if left alone, their "place" becomes the whole canvas. We all know how nationalists are like - give them a hand and they'll scream "THE WHOLE ARM IS MY REICH".

      • I'm not even really disagreeing with you. To be honest, I'm quite sick of seeing large plain flags on the canvas, too. But I fail to see a point in being so angry about it to the point of wanting to "fight back" against the "nationalists".

        At the end of the day, it's not that important. Just leave them and look for other spots to draw your stuff, maybe ask around in participating communities; they'll even help you if you ask nicely.

  • Please don't. The Aussie flag will likely be the largest, and it will have art on it next year (not like this year where we accepted art, next year it will be on the template.) It also allowed art this year. There is no reason to be an asshole and ruin stuff for no good reason.

    • There is no reason to be an asshole and ruin stuff for no good reason.

      Except when it's a rainbow, a flag of another government, or Tux's foot. Right? /s

      I'm not blaming specifically you eathan for this, before you jump to conclusions. But even you should acknowledge that the main sort of people "being an arsehole and ruining stuff for no good reason" are flag posters. And I would not be surprised if they were the major ones behind botting and multi-accounting too.

      Just keep it small.

      • You do have a lot of prejudices.

      • We did not attack the rainbow, they are still here. The Brazilian flag was not attacked by an Aussie. Tux's foot was over one of our star, sorry to the people who made it but we wanted our stars at the top of the flag (that was the only one we damaged)

        No alts were used (or if they were they did not do significant work as i only saw 3 or 4 accounts that did more than like 30px) and no bots were used.

  • The point of flag is, that they are (usually) easier coordinate, draw and restore.

    I suppose they will alway start with the flag because it is our culture but also define a drawing zone.

    I disagree with any form of vadalism, but you may invit them drawing their monument :)

    • Due to the purpose of my post, I am focusing solely on the larger flags in the Canvas, a fact that you "conveniently" skipped past. And, instead of trying to proselytise my views, unlike you, I'm trying to gather people with common grounds, even with different views.

      So I'll let my rambling against flags in general to another opportunity, and focus solely on the Canvas.

      The point of flag is, that they are (usually) easier [to] coordinate, draw and restore.

      In other words: they're boring and unoriginal, and take space of things that actually take more effort and cooperation to pull out.

      I suppose they [who?] will alway[s] start with the flag because it is our culture but also define a drawing zone.

      Both points are red herrings and you likely know it.

      I disagree with any form of va[n]dalism,

      Cut off the bullshit.

      If you were actually concerned about vandalism you wouldn't be defending country flags at all, given that they're the major source of vandalism (more than the void).

      Pick a timelapse of the canvas and see it by yourself.

      but you may invit[e] them drawing their monument :)

      Or alternatively I could tell them that their "monument" (pfffttt... holy fuck calling a dirty flag a "monument" is hilariously cringey) is taking off too much space, and gather other like-minded people to do it.

      That is what I am doing here.

      You're being at the very least disingenuous, if not worse, so I won't waste my time further with you.

      • Well, i find your post very aggressive...

        i didn't miss your point and wanted to put another point of view on how usefull flag are on a collaborative and competitive space.

        We got our 4 small flag erased because we were french.

        I noticed people start drawing flag, then draw something. Why ? Because it is visual. You are simply telling them : "We are this community, and here is our drawing area."

        And yes there is conflit due to the lack of space and human ressource.

        It doesn't dimiss you point, that's just another point of view. You are right too.

        So from your stance we should erase the major flag : trans flag, germany and rainbow in the same way as Void that erased other people work ? What do you think it will happen ? What do you expect from attacking them ? A pixel war ?

        Will they understand your point ?

        That's not fun. You can create a group, that's a good idea. when the canva will start, go to their matrix room and suggest some drawing. But don't attack them.

        Because if you attack them :

        • people won't be creative and try to protect their flag. You won't get any creativity except revenge : they stop drawing and fiqht you back. Unless you suggest them some drawing.
        • you may get a ban once notified
        • your fediverse id may be shared among other admins instance and get banned.

  • I think the templates should be limited in size perhaps - if you look at the intended template location post from the other day, yes the Australian flag is significantly larger than the other submissions. However on the final canvas, people have drawn within the blue space of the flag which is actually quite cute. I don't think 'defacing' is necessary, but rather a continuation of (at least what appears to me to be) a symbiosis where overlapping images work together.

    So I guess I'd like to see drawing accepted on top of any large continuous blocks of colour.

    P.s. I love what Canada did - the outline on top of the flag looks really cool!

  • It did make me feel a bit gross that from the get-go the plan was for the Australian flag to take up such an enormous space.

    I'm satisfied with how things turned out, with art going all over the flag and the stars shining through, but it didn't seem considerate in the beginning.

    • I’m satisfied with how things turned out, with art going all over the flag and the stars shining through, but it didn’t seem considerate in the beginning.

      It's often like this, to give you a false impression of a compromise. I've seen it all the time in r/place, for example. (Doubly true in pixelplanet, but that's... eh, let's say that biggest drawing there is a swastika.)

      And typically, it goes like this:

      1. Claim a huge space of the canvas for the sake of the flag.
      2. Lay waste over whatever is in the middle of the way, be it drawings or flags from other herds.
      3. "Oh fuck, it's too big for us to defend. People are drawing random stuff over it."
      4. Eventually let the people drawing random stuff to do it, under the terms dictated by the flag itself. Under a discourse that sounds a lot like "this is the land of Our Holy Symbol. However, since we're magnanimous, we shall turn a blind eye to your doodle defacing it."
      5. [If applicable] Shift the blame of the step #2 on others. "Nooo, I didn't do it. Others did."

      Besides the façade of compromise, there's also a second motivation for fourth last step: it's a way to co-opt people drawing random stuff to protect the flag, as they likely care about the surroundings of their own drawings.

      Please do note, however, that people drawing those large flags do not want to reach an actual compromise. And playing nice (cooperation) only works if the other side is also playing nice - we shouldn't be playing dove in a hawk-dove game.

  • It's always kinda icky when ppl are so proud of popping out of a vagina/their parents having sex in a certain place, that they feel like plastering it all over a creative space in the most unimaginative ways

    • I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning here. You're saying that people shouldn't be proud of things that they have no control over? As a gay guy, should I not be able to put up a pride flag?

      There's a ton of symbolism/meaning there, and doesn't always mean blind devotion to a country.

      • imo grouping ppl into nations (and thus states) is usually harmful. Ethnicity and culture are not synonymous with states which only exist for one class to oppress another (virtually always in favour of the rich)

        The concept of a nation is one of the initial lies of ruling elites. The exploiters and oppressors have shouted since the dawn of time: "Don't look at this massive ravine dividing us into materially opposing classes, we are all members of this abstract notion of a nation, remember? Direct your hate towards the exploited ppl of other nations, they are the source of "our" problems, even though you are much more aligned with them materially!"

        For example: I wouldn't have a problem with ppl painting flags of progressive movements or states where the working classes are in power

        EDIT: changed first sentence to a more accurate definition of a state (still basic)

      • Being gay, or any other actual identity, is an intrinsic part of who you are that would still be true if all of society's constructs were to fall away. You'd still be interested, presumably, in people who presented in what we currently associate with masculine appearances. Trans folk would still be trans. POC, still POC.

        Your home country doesn't hold up to the same rigour. I think that's the idea? Its less a "part of you" and more a "circumstance of your conception". But hey.

    • Frankly, ditto. And it's icky for me specially when people conflate country with culture, like those people rather consistently do.

      And... like, I get that we [people in general] get spammed by our governments with ideology, in order to ditch all available identities that we have at our disposal, and adopt the country-based identity that benefits the government. It's more often than not fuel for oppression.

  • Will you organise a Matrix chat for this? I'd definitely be interested in joining

    • Will you organise a Matrix chat for this?

      Now I will - that's a great idea.

      I'm planning to do so when the next Canvas is announced, in 2025, as people will be a bit more pumped up to join than now. (For now I'm mostly gauging interest on the idea.)

      When I do it, do you want me to ping you?

  • Im with you!

  • The flaw in the plan is that three or four large-flag cadres could conspire to support each other and overwhelm a protest.

    Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo. But I’d still prefer just to see them banned from Canvas rather see Canvas turn into an r/place arms race.

    • Sorry for the double reply. Another thing that I realised in the meantime is that people working on flags won't be willing to divert time too much time to undo defacement of another flag. So as long as we concentrate our efforts towards a single flag, the opposition of other flag-posters will be spotty at best.

    • That flaw is an issue, indeed. And it's worth thinking on ways to reduce it.

      However, there are two things in our side:

      1. the proportion of people holding critic and informed views about flags on Canvas is likely way higher than in r/place.
      2. due to the nature of the symbol in question (country flags), herds of "large-flaggers" will likely have trouble coordinating with each other.

      Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo.

      Emphasis mine. I get your reasoning here and I agree with it; it's just that those specific symbols are egregiously problematic in this sort of "collab+compete Paint simulator".

  • could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?

    • could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?

      My main idea is to deface the flag, so I'd ask people to not integrate the artwork. But if you do integrate the artwork I'd ask people to leave it alone and focus on the flag itself, so it would be safe.

      • So you want to protect artwork on a flag but not the flag itself? I guess my ultimate question is why do you care so much about defacing any (larger) flags on the canvas if they don't even take up that much space with just the flag parts alone.

        Like, you want to respect people's drawings that they spend hours working on while defacing other people's drawings that they spend hours on just because you don't like the "country-based identity that benefits the government" these latter drawings supposedly represent.

        I really don't mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you're coming from with this.

  • Man, then dont attend at all, dont troll, dont annoy others.

    • As already discussed ad nauseam through the thread:

      People who don't want those huge flags in the canvas have the exact same right to organise themselves and use the rules of the game to undo those flags, as the people who are making those flags. So cut off this "you either leave them alone or sod off" discourse, OK? That's what you're saying under different words.

      Not even the void is trolling.

      Annoyance in this sort of online game is part of the game, like it or not.

70 comments