That's not ketchup
That's not ketchup
“We will continue to actively engage in the hard work of direct diplomacy on the ground until we reach a Final Solution.”
You're viewing a single thread.
Biden is actively supporting a genocidal and fascist Israeli government.
Here is a good DN segment on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgAALBt5UQ
Biden ran on re-building our standing globally and re-building support for institutions like the UN. Now we're the thing disabling the UN from preventing a genocide.
Vote uncommitted moving forwards. If Democrats don't think they need to come get your vote, or that they are reasons we vote for them in the first place, don't vote for them. Voting Democrat without holding them accountable is the second steps of a waltz that continues to drive the United States over a right wing cliff.
At this current time, it would be extremely foolish to not vote Democrat.
I know this is really a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, but at least one of them isn't going to destroy democracy and create alliances with the despots of this world.
And the thing is, if Trump wins, do you think he's going to stop the genocide? If anything he's going to praise Netanyahu for being so strict and a fascist autoritarian.
Netanyahu knows that a Trump win would help him. He's been playing Biden this whole time and working to destroy his reputation. Biden is just trying to keep some kind of relationship with Israel because they're their only ally in the region.
It's all very complex, but in the end voting Democrat is the best choice you have at the moment.
It's all very complex, but in the end voting Democrat is the best choice you have at the moment.
If anybody has a problem with this statement, it's because the moment to do something about this was every fucking election in the past. Vote in small elections where people get their opportunity for their start. Vote in primaries to choose a better person for the general. If we all had been doing this in the past, we wouldn't have such a shitty choice now. So what do we do now? Keep the pressure on the people in power now, vote for the lesser of two evils in the immediate future, and most importantly, vote in every fucking election from now on. Democracy isn't one and done. Voting is not just your right, it's your goddamn responsibility. You owe it to yourself, your children, and every other person whether you love them or hate them, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, whether they're alive now or won't be born for another hundred or thousand years.
Fuck Joe Biden. But fuck trump more. A vote for Biden this year gives us more time to find a better choice, plus he's gotten quite a bit of good done in only four years. A vote for trump gets us shit like abortion bans, attempts to reverse marriage equality, stripping away healthcare, stripping away elder care and child care, stripping away worker rights, raising your taxes to lower the taxes of the wealthy, and many more things that will only make your life shittier. There is objectively no good reason for any person who isn't already a millionaire to vote for trump. He's got the mierdas touch; everything he touches turns to shit.
Vote in primaries to choose a better person for the general.
We did. Moderates said "No we choose this pro-corporate, strike blocking, genocide supporting senior citizen."
Stop lecturing leftists and progressives. Spend your time and energy telling moderates they're selfish pieces of shit.
Both of you are wrong. Its time for your people to overthrow those leeches that govern you, by arms if necessary. Theres no lesser evil
The best way to reduce the violence we don't like is by using the violence we do like.
Really?
And if there's no such thing as a lesser evil, then there's no such thing as a better candidate. You'll never find a candidate that you agree with on 100% of the issues 100% of the time...if you do, you're acting sycophantic and should take some time to consider whether you really know the candidate or really know your own views.
So based. Now wait for the magical unicorn to come so you vote him into office and he solves the problems
LOL this is why I left lemmy.ml. People really live in a different universe.
No. It's by getting involved.
In a republic like the U.S., the tiniest elections count. Voting for a local mayor, judge, sheriff, state governor, senator or house representative. In fact they may be more important than the president. Also registering to a party and voting in the primaries is an important part of choosing a representative for the party who can potentially become the president.
As others have pointed out, had people participated, Biden wouldn't have been picked as the leader had more people participated in the primaries.
What's happening right now is a culmination of voter apathy over several decades.
People who think you can solve the problems at hand by voting on the right person really lack any notion of history
I'm so happy that people are finally pushing back against this. I got tired of being the only one to be brigaded by angry people who sort by newest comment and constantly hit F5.
What are you talking about this is the same shit you all said in 2016. You all really think we're bluffing twice?
If you want our votes don't support genocide and don't block strikes.
At this current time, it would be extremely foolish to not vote Democrat.
No, what was foolish was moderates thinking we were bluffing twice.
lol what an asinine, short-sighted take that it may be confused with a right-wing wedge-driver.
Congratulations. You're helping the guy who is objectively-worse in every conceivable way, including genocide. Not only has Trump made it abundantly clear he'd be worse for Palestinians, he would also be worse for Ukrainians under genocidal threat, too.
Your blue no matter who strategy has been I place since 2008. As a result, the Democratic party is further right than it's ever been before, and creeping fascism has exploded into running fascism.
This is a direct consequence of your strategy. Blue no matter who results in unaccountable elected officials, because you've positioned yourself to have no other option. They have no requirements of responsiveness to your political positions because they know that you think "this election is too important'.
It's basic game theory and you've cornered yourself into supporting your opponents strategy. By voting blue no matter who you've set up a paradigm where the best case scenario is a slow walk into right wing facism.
If haven't been able to tell, the strategy is obviously not working. Look at how unresponsive Biden has been to voter sentiment in Gaza. He's in complete opposition to his base. As such he faces losing Michigan. The direct cause of this is the confidence that he will not lose voters because you are unwilling to make the difficult choice of withholding your consent. As such he knows he doesn't need to respond to your policy positions, and in doing so, is setting up the conditions for another Trump presidency.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
It's basic game theory
Okay since you've mentioned game theory let's do some.
For: T = trump wins B = Biden wins
M = Biden is just as bad as Trump N = Trump is much worse than Biden
Then the outcome table looks something like this where positive numbers mean a good outcome
M NT 0 -1
B 0 +1
Since if they're both bad it doesn't matter who wins, like you're insinuating. But if Trump is worse than Biden then it's obviously better to vote Biden because if Biden wins you get a 0 or a 1, but if Trump wins you get a 0 or a -1.
And also to anyone with eyes, ears or a brain, it's obvious Donald "I'm literally going to start a fascist dictatorship if I win" Trump is worse than Joe "Please don't commit genocide or I'll write you a strongly worded letter" Biden.
Also... we've seen this happen before. Hillary loses to Trump, we live through four years of a fascist administration (and all the shit that comes with it), then in 2020... we get Biden.
That user is, simultaneously, using criticisms of Biden to justify recreating the conditions that brought him into office.
And that user also used the Palestinians to justify letting the DNC lose to Trump, even though Trump is even more bigoted and pro-Israel. It's saying the best "strategy" to voice discontent over the genocide is to... accelerate it.
I'm not willing to go through four years of fascism, then if we get to vote again in 2028—which we wouldn't be able to take for granted—likely get some other milquetoast conservative Democrat. I'd rather spend the next four years trying to fight and push Democrats to the left than to fight GOP fascists.
Yeah it's very much cutting off your nose to spite your face.
"You know what will show those bastards at thr DNC? If we let trump win and let him ruin our lives1 Imagine the look on Bidens face when I get beaten by magahats, lol.
Moderate voters elected Joe Biden and in the same breath where they say Democracy is at stake they sneer at the idea of compromising with leftists or progressives to save it.
Moderates are the problem.
Moderates being the problem doesn't mean not voting is the solution.
Also… we’ve seen this happen before.
So we're gonna try the same tactics as before.
Right? It's crazy when moderates bring up 2016 as if it were a lesson for progressives and leftists. The lack of self awareness is ridiculous.
then in 2020… we get Biden.
Do you think the same people who refused to show up for Hillary in the 2016 general voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries?
The elephant in the room here is that moderates are the largest voting bloc in the Democrat party. That means they hold the lions share of the responsibility for outcomes. If they steamroll the primaries to vote for a candidate that isn't popular with wings they need to win general elections they are responsible for that decision.
Do you think the same people who refused to show up for Hillary in the 2016 general voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries?
Well, no. I'm not sure what point you think I was making.
My point is that the DNC isn't going to be pushed left by a loss. The leadership is old, stubborn, and stupid. They'll tell leftists to shut the fuck up during the primaries because they don't matter, then blame them after a loss because suddenly they did matter enough to make the difference. When it turns out that most leftists held their noses and voted Blue anyway, they'll just ignore it. Then, if we get to vote again, they'll take exactly the wrong lesson, and just push harder to the right.
The point in bringing up 2016 is because they did push a centrist candidate, she did lose to a fascist clown, and then, four years later, they pushed Joe Biden. Why on Earth would anyone expect them to do anything different if it happens again?
I see the problem you're making, it's not always obvious so it's kind of hard to deal with.
The issue is expecting logic to have any affect on some people.
(It's always worth the effort I'm just poking fun) :P
Where’s the table with the third party candidates?
Hahahahahaha!
How old are ya bud? Is this your first election?
I see you have boomer in your name, must be all that lead and asbestos. Cheers for the laughs, moron
Bernie would have been better, but Biden is better than Trump. It's that simple.
You need to make the connection between this exact thinking and the previous 20 years of history. This is the argument Democrats have been making every single election cycle. The result is that we have a rightwing Democratic party, and a further right Republican party.
Its a failed strategy, the result of which seems to be a turn to global fascism.
So you prefer to not participate rather than take the best of the options in front of you. Understood.
This is a false dichotomy.
I'm right here. Give me a call when Nancy Pelosi is calling out Biden for his weak position on Israel and asking for a unilateral ceasefire (you know, as in, the vote Biden blocked this morning).
I'm right here. Come get my vote. You want me to vote they way you want me to?
Go ahead and start writing letters and phone banking Pelosi's office. Hit me up when you get them to adopt the policy and I've vote for your candidate.
If this is so fucking important, what are you doing to convince Democrats that they need to go after voters who don't approve of their policy?
You've declared yourself to be right multiple times in a row, which indicates that you are not fully convinced on this concept. Also you should probably learn to be a better persuader. You won't win people over by being on the attack all the time.
I mean "right here' as in, my vote is available for the taking. If the Democrats want to change policy positions, they'll get my vote.
My broader point is that giving away your vote without policy concessions is precisely why we're on a cripwalk to fascism.
Until we move away from first past the post, your refusal to participate is spoiling the vote in favor of the party that opposes the party you claim to be wanting to improve. Voter turnout in the US is very low compared to in other democracies. You need to understand that playing chicken with the center-right party will only help the far right party. Of course we want them to be better, but they can't get better if they have no power. Progressive policies are popular as fuck, but because you and people like you are making "good" the enemy of "perfect", we are winding up with dog shit morons like Lauren Boebert as a rep, Ted Cruz as a Senator, and Donald Trump as a president.
It's like you brought a ball to recess and wanted to play soccer. 35% of the kids want to play kickball, which isn't soccer but at least you still get to show off your sweet kicking skills. 35% want to shit on the ball and throw it at your face. 30% will whine about having to play whatever game gets picked. You're part of that 30% right now. Why the fuck would you insist on not going along with kickball when the alternative is a shit-covered pummeling? Don't you think that maybe once you've proven to the rest of the 30% that kickball is actually pretty good, maybe you can make soccer happen at recess next time?
Except that this isn't football at lunch. This is a conversation about a party which supports genocide, versus another party that would also support a genocide. I'm not going to be able to influence the Republicans by withholding my vote. I'm not going to be able to influence the Democrats by offering my vote implicitly.
I might be able to influence the Democrats by witholding my vote.
The Democrat you are insisting I vote for IS PARTY TO GENOCIDE. Not hypothetically, not maybe in the future. The guy we have right now, the genocide happening right now.
Real. Right now. This guy.
The data we actually have says that voting Democrat isn't sufficient to stop a genocide. Maybe voting republican isn't either. We don't have data on that.
Its not my job to carry water for a genocidal party and their sycophants; you think its yours.
And guess what? All that water carrying, years of it, its not working. The Democrats are further right than they've ever been.
When a strategy doesn't work, you change your approach.
In doing so I find myself party with Rashida Talib, Ro Khanna, Abraham Aiyash (second ranking Democrat in Michigan House).
All of them are asking people to write in "No Confidence".
If you think you can keep handing your vote to Democrats implicitly while demanding nothing for it, and they'll just magically find their way to your policy position, you are delusional. Do know why Republicans cater to their voters insane desires? Because if they don't, Republican voters drop them like a sack of shit. Withholding your vote is one of the only and most effective ways to move elected officials to your policy positions.
So you prefer to not participate rather than take the best of the options in front of you.
Moderates chose to participate in the 2020 primaries and choose one of the worst options.
Moderates chose not to compromise with leftists and progressives on policy matters.
That judgement cuts both ways my dude. Where are your lectures for moderates?
Its a failed strategy
Oh, it's working as intended.
Yeah its a pretty salty cynical take, but you aren't wrong.
Fuck them and fuck their apologists. Maybe the accelerationsists have the right of it.
do you realize how much positivity and wins the dems have raked in since 2018?
Don’t bother answering because we all know the answer is no.
This is your first election, you don’t get how any of this works, we get it already. Time to step off your soap box and learn some actual history
Bernie would have been better
Then where are your lectures for the moderates? They are the majority voting bloc. They chose a garbage candidate and continue to sneer at the very idea of compromising with leftists and progressives.
Since 2008? So your "blue no matter who" Democrats pushing us towards fascism are Obama and Biden?
If people were actually voting like your take implies, we'd have had Hillary instead of Trump.
You’re talking to a child that barely remembers 2008 and speaks only of what they’ve heard years after lol
I guess
Given a choice there are plenty of better options. As things stand though the other side is red till they're dead and will continue to push more dangerous positions regardless of what the left does. The middle space 'independents' are the only deciding factor being courted.
Yeah because
2008 USA = 2024 USA! Totally were festering on the end of our democracy there with ex presidents interrupting the peaceful transfer of power for the first time ev-
Wait what? 2008 was essentially another lifetime ago and democracy was not hanging by a thread as it is now….
But shit, we already did blue no matter who so I guess we’re all fascists instead by your words. Yep!
Get a fucking grip and open your goddamn eyes
To no surprise you have provided no response to any of the great comments you’ve received from this brain dead take of yours. I wonder why
Election day is for voting Democrat - no ifs ands or buts.
Every other day of the election cycle is for pushing, cajoling, encouraging, bribing, bullying, and helping the Democrats do better.
If this isn't what you're doing, you're helping the objectively Far worse option into power, and potentially doing your bit to end democracy in the US for the foreseeable future.
If my only choices are evil or a lesser evil, then the system is already broken, and democracy is already dead. What we're experiencing is the dying rattle.
Yes, that's obvious to everyone. And you're absolutely right to complain about it. But if all one does is complain without voting for the lesser evil they're part of the greater evil.
What does that say about people who voted for Biden over the better options in the 2020 primaries? Why are all of these conversations so focused on lectures for leftists and progressives? Where are the conversations about moderates being uncompromising selfish pieces of shit?
- Vote for a lesser evil
- Repeat forever
(Less evil === more good)
Ok. Here's some food for thought.
You have have to choose between two numbers, the lower the number the more evil it represents. You don't have any real say over which numbers pop up, and you only get to choose between the two you're given. If you always choose the least evil option it'll always go up right?
The first two numbers you're given are 55 and 23. So you choose 55, it's the least evil.
55 wins. So 55 is up again but this time it's more like 49 and 23. Easy still, you choose 49.
Well now it's two new numbers, let's say it's 48 and 32. Still easy. 48.
Then 48 is up again vs 16. Somehow 16 wins.
Next you have 16 vs 40. So you choose 40. 40 wins, and is now up against 16 again, and has fallen to like 35.
You've chosen the least evil option every time, and still, the least evil option has progressed towards evil. Soon the least evil option will be as bad as the most evil option in recent memory. But we'll still be told the only way to make this better is to keep voting for the least evil option.
The solution isn't simply accepting what we're given and hoping for the best anymore.
Then what is the solution? What's your alternative? It's not third parties, that has never worked. The solution is somewhere around a general strike or civil war, and we all know you aren't brave enough. Most aren't. There's not enough people capable or willing enough to band together to force change en masse when it's required.
So you'll point out how stupid it is to keep doing the same, you're not wrong, but there's also no viable alternative for the average person.
So.........shrug?
The solution is radical activism.
There will be no change without great personal risk, and you're right, of the heart isn't in it, it isn't going to happen. It takes a significant amount of marginalisation before people collectively rise up and break things. It's that going to happen tomorrow? No probably not. But if the teens continue as they have, it will eventually happen.
A thriving middle class will put up with a tremendous amount of bullshit to keep their happy little lives. Marginalized people with nothing to lose are much quicker to action, and we're building consecutive generations who will have nothing to lose from radical action.
Relevance?
The amount of downvotes on this is absurd
Imagine being an American Palestinian with dead family in Gaza being told to vote for Biden because he's the lesser evil.
Dude would probably sucker punch you in the face for such an asanine idea.
Not to mention by the time elections end, the genocide will already have gone though it's climax and ended with who knows how many dead. The pressure to put on Biden needs to happen now, and it's easy to do because it's election year.
If he still refuses to budge then he loses the election. That's a good thing because a genocide supporter really shouldn't be president.
Biden IS the lesser evil. The fact that you and I don't like that doesn't matter a jot. The alternative is immeasurably worse. Biden is an evil man who supports Genocide and the alternative is worse and because of the shitty FPP voting system, you should vote for Biden.
Yea we get it, you are new to US elections. Let me give you a tip: every goddamn election is the choice between two lesser evils. No candidate can court all issues for all voters. The propped up 2p system ensures this.
Until we shift US politics when it comes to 2 parties, the electoral college, ranked choice voting, and getting money out of politics (citizens united rulings), this will ALWAYS be the case.
Voting red ain’t gonna help you in that regard, only blue cares about democracy right now.
Imagine being an American Palestinian indeed: vote for Biden who is trying to hold Israel back or vote for Trump who is cheering on bibi and his genocide?
Imagine being an American Ukrainian: vote for Biden who is invested in ukraines survival or Trump who wants to split up nato and genocide the remaining Ukrainians?
It’s so neat how you get to choose which genocide matters btw.
Biden doesn’t have the control over Israel you think he does. I’m sure Trump will be much tougher on Israeli genocide tho
It’s cool how you get to decide which genocide matters btw
if dems don’t feel the need to come get your vote
Give me a fuckin break, Jesus Christ what a brain dead take. You make it sound like the ONLY campaigning any dem is doing is we’ll vote for us cause we’re dem. That is so fucking BULLSHIT.
They’re campaigning on trumps Russian connections and his fraud, his exposure of top secret docs, his efforts on Dobbs and abortion, on tax breaks for the rich and attacking the irs, attacking science and vaccines, I could go on FOR GODDAMN HOURS.
But no-no! It’s just vote for us cuz blue!!!
Fuck your false reality