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Boys and men aged 16 to 29 more likely than over-60s to believe feminism harmful, says poll

www.theguardian.com Gen Z boys and men more likely than baby boomers to believe feminism harmful, says poll

Fifth of men aged 16-29 look favourably on social media influencer Andrew Tate

Gen Z boys and men more likely than baby boomers to believe feminism harmful, says poll

Note that this poll only targetted around 3000 UK adults aged 16+. Nonetheless I personally think the trend this poll highlights is worrying and worthy of discussion.

Also note I changed the original title to not use the terms "Gen Z" and "baby boomers" since I think putting in the ages is clearer.

Some choice quotes:

On feminism, 16% of [16 to 29-year-old] males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.

One in four UK males aged 16 to 29 believe it is harder to be a man than a woman.

37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.

The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership.

“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”

But Duffy said: “There is a consistent minority of between one-fifth and one-third who hold the opposite view. This points to a real risk of fractious division among this coming generation.”

Prof Rosie Campbell, director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership at King’s, said: “The fact that this group is the first to derive most of their information from social media is likely to be at least part of the explanation.

In the meantime, social media algorithms are filling the vacuum, she said. “This could be something that changes when young men enter the workforce but we can’t take that for granted given how important social media is in the way we understand ourselves.”

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  • As far as I understand it men are part of fourth wave feminism, so seeing this feels conflicting to me. If you believe men are having a hard time, then feminism is right up your alley, isn't it?

    So I just wonder if this survey even makes sense because how can you answer a question you don't understand?

    • It's probably a result of ignorance. People like Steve Bannon, Jordan Peterson, Tim Pool etc. have preyed on a generation of young men to create this narrative that they've been victimized by feminism. In reality, the vast majority of normal men are themselves victims of the patriarchal cultural.

      They're victimized in a different way than women, but all the negative things they complain about (pressure to fit certain unrealistic roles, their dependence on status and heirarchy, the low priority placed on abused men by society etc.) are all symptoms of patriarchal system. That's where the confusion is seeded because it's difficult to concisely explain to men how a system designed to priviledge men is also one that victimizes men, because it's not for all men, not really.

      Men also benefit from the liberty of women and the re-valuation of feminine characteristics.

      • As a transwoman this strikes close to home. I've always felt that if I am able to be free, that means that everyone is free. Specifically by giving up privilege. When you see me I hope that's what you feel, including men. It's added value.

        But well, for others it somehow attacks their identity.

        • Yes, and I think trans people, trans women in particular, so flagrantly flout the patriarchal rule merely by existing as themselves honestly that it's no great wonder they've become a lightning rod for the far-right.

          The right needs society to reject trans people because the acceptance of them and their ability to live happy, fulfilling lives undermines the foundations of the right's entire worldview -- it neutralizes the fear they use to control men and women by showing that no, actually, the stakes of performing your assigned role are not as high or unchangeable as you thought.

    • If you believe men are having a hard time, then feminism is right up your alley, isn’t it?

      Ultimately, I believe this is a direct result of the capitalist capture of feminist aesthetics into the sort of shallow “pop-feminism” that rose to prominence over the past couple of decades. For young men who’ve only ever seen this hyper-sanitized business driven take on feminism (one that notably does not make room for them), it’s easy for them to see it as an extension of the broader trends that leave them disenfranchised. A lot of young men simply do not have any experience with the broader feminist tradition.

    • Modern feminism has a problem with the name: it literally says "female ideology".

      That works fine when females are oppressed out of speaking their mind, and the meaning is obvious to everyone: more rights for the obviously oppressed. Many places, that is still an issue, so the name fits right in.

      However, in societies where both men and women already have the same basic rights to life, speech, work, ownership, etc., for those who don't have a full picture, its meaning turns into a "female superiority movement". So now there appears a group of poorly informed men who, going just by the name, feel opressed by the "female superiority movement"... which fuels a desire for a counter-movement of "male superiority"... and related grifters like that Tate thing.

      One possible way to solve it, would be for feminism to use a different label in these societies, one that would inherently and unmistakeably express the goal of "parity, equality of opportunities". For example: equalitarianism.

      Meanwhile, people who just heard the word "feminism" for the first time, in societies where they can see females walking freely on the streets, then the first explanation they get is from the likes of Tate... well, this happens.

    • There has been measurable wage stagnation in the USA for the past 50 years. If you combine this with more equal pay between men and women plus an increase in education in the workforce, you are likely going to have a group of lesser educated men who have seen a backslide in their economic power. This gets combined with a general lack of social power as women can be more independent, both economically and socially.

      Some men may see this as needing reforms in the economy to raise all working class economic conditions, but others may look back at feminism of all forms as being a major reason they don't get what men a generation or two ago had.

      • I think that in the past it was also simpler for men to express their sexuality, at the detriment of women. Perhaps some men feel left behind as they don't know how to move forward with society. Kind of like those people in Japan who never leave the house because the social rules go over their heads.

        • The hikikomori are more of an extreme case of "staying in the closet": they are people who, when they fail to meet some expectation (like finishing their studies, or getting a job), decide to retreat to a safe space (their room) in order to not bring shame to their families, while at the same time the families cover up the fact to avoid bringing shame to themselves and the recluded person.

          I think modern toxic masculinity is more of an action-reaction thing: women get some rights, at the expense of men's rights to abuse them, so some men push back against the loss of what used to be their right... without stopping to consider whether that right was fair or not in the first place.

          • Makes sense. It's interesting how many hypothesis we have in our discussion here. I wonder if there's any studies into this.

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