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my brother in christ, the USA has spent hundreds of billions-- nay TRILLIONS just on the f35 project
https://fortune.com/longform/lockheed-martin-f-35-fighter-jet/
lots of govts spend money on dumbass shit haha
So we're in agreement lol
And the uae wants to buy them? I don't get your point.
the point is. the f35 is a horribly over budget and unneeded venture. the USA doesn't need it. it's a military industrial complex thing. and you guys in chat going I don't get it... sigh. part of the problem lol. the uae buying them doesn't change the fact we've spent like ten x the budget. also lots of countries buy stuff from us. like the world's number one arms dealer so I don't even get YOUR point.
that's not a success and you're coping lol. there's an odd amount of America simps here lolol
The F35 is a good capable platform, better than the f22 in a couple of ways. Though Lockheed was able to milk the sustainment contracts to be very lucrative for themselves. But it's the most technologicaly advanced fighter ever, brings tons of new capabilities to the US and it's allies, and is very sought after around the world.
Would you disagree? Are you arguing it doesn't work, is too expensive per unit, too expense to develop, or that the US doesn't need it?
I would agree on point three only, because they went into production before validation was finished which turned out to be a bad wager. But the platform itself is still pretty great despite is flaws. Hence why the UAE wants them.
yes I disagree completely. at the current price point out current arsenal is already more than capable than pretty much the entire world bro.
we don't need another fucking fighter jet when there's people in your population struggling with medical debt. with not being able to afford where they live and no means to escape and ending homeless. With schools struggling for funding. with a decaying railroad system and general infrastructue.
seriously all the things and protections that made this country great pre Reagan (well besides y'know blatant segregation) are EVISCERATED and you guys are here giving them a pat on the back for freaking 1trillion plus to a still not complete and fully ready project. and even if it was complete we've FAR exceeded the value. like it's just not needed bro it's greed.
it drives me insane to see this, and how apathetic everyone is. are we ever going to wake up from this madness?
You're talking about reducing military spending in general, not about F35 specifically? I actually agree then. But the F35 isn't a bad bang for the buck for increasing combat power. Are we taking about the F35 or about military spending?
what are you talking about?
BOTH there is no seperating the two!???? the f35 is an example out of many examples of govt over spending. and again the f35 is AWFUL for bang to the buck? what war do we need it for? what are we missing? https://www.defensenews.com/smr/hidden-troubles-f35 btw it's awful it's no secret that it is mid engineered
you're not gonna gas light me into saying that those are two separate discussions when they aren't.
there's no need to like, defend the f35 project. lmao the actual defense industry is aware of its issues.
just trying to figure out where this 'bang for our Buck' is coming from when there no shot were going to sell enough to offset the cost as well as them being buggy and hard to maintain. .you do know the us already has the strongest military BY FAR. It's pointless.
I think you fundamental misunderstand what military spending like the f35 is for. It's purpose is to keep a war (like China invading Tiwan) from happening because the other side knows that it won't do well. A successful system isn't necessarily one that does well in combat, but one that keeps the fight from happening in the first place. Since war is so astronomically expensive, even extremely expensive systems are worth it to prevent war.
Also, compare to other modern fighters. F22 is something like 5x the price, it's 20M cheaper than the f15ex, and is only about 15M more expensive than the super hornet. It offers a high stealth capability at a significantly lower price point and higher quality than the f22.
If you buy into the amount of combat power needed to deter a war (I think it should be much lower than current US estimates, but I guess Russia still managed to miscalculate) then they're a good investment. Any which way, they're a good modern addition to a very high tech fighting force.
Here's more info on the f16 vs f35 tests you might be referencing. https://youtu.be/R_aID6_naNU
Here's a good overview of the f35 and what capabilities it brings to the table. https://youtu.be/7SNALUoybt0
Both by Alex Hollings, award winning aviation journalist.
you're so dellusional mate if you think it's the f35 program keeping china from invading and not our deep economic ties with them. f22 is more but it didn't cost trillions to make.
not a good point. and no that is not the purpose of military spending that's the propaganda lockee heed Martin lobbiest shrill to our idiotic Congress people.
sheesh we are doomed because people like your need to bend over backwards to justify outrageous military spending. and no I'm not thinking of the f16 tests, I'm thinking of the literal pilots that call the f35 a sack of shit
also a higher stealth capability... for what mate for what we already have uavs for recon. military satellites. tapped into the grid of the entire world through back doors in like phones and shir.
we don't need a fucking jet and nothing you say will ever change that. you're literally justifting bullshit.
us not putting money into dumb shit like this won't change the fact that we are the world's largest nuclear power. thats the real thing keeping war at bay it's MAD not some jet bro when we have literally arsenal a on arsenals already of just aircraft CARRIERS
like what are you on about
also F-35 Fighter Jet Problems Affect the Whole US Military Aircraft Fleet https://www.businessinsider.com/ongoing-f35-fighter-jet-problems-affect-whole-us-military-fleet-2023-1?amp
F-35 Aircraft: DOD and the Military Services Need to Reassess the ... https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-23-105341 F-35 fighter jets 'mission capable' only 55% of the time, watchdog report finds https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2023-09-21/f35-jets-crash-repairs-11446626.html
Not a Lot of F-35s Are Flying Right Now - Popular Mechanics https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a42912833/f-35-availability-problems/
Inside America's Dysfunctional Trillion-Dollar Fighter-Jet Program https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/magazine/f35-joint-strike-fighter-program.html
do I need to keep going? or are you going to try to keep gas lighting me into agreeing that actually you're right all the f35 spending is justified and its actually not just a collasal fuck up?
and also lets not forget America loves funding wars lol. so I don't even know what you're on about. sometimes it seems like we justify wars elsewhere so that sods like you can come and defend all this spending by pointing to problems we've created/exascurbated.
give me a break. f35 is the peacemaker you say? so ridiculous and you clearly don't understand foreign policy of you think the way you do.
goddamn, just shut the fuck up. We can all see you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Every single response is trying to provide context and nuance but you continue to cry and equate any military spending to the future commission of war crimes, while conveniently ignoring how close to wwiii we actually are.
Open your goddamn eyes and shut your goddamn mouth until you learn something about this shit you cry about.
also about ww3.yknow were funding isreal right? lmaoooooo.
what are you talking about not every military spending is directly to war crimes but there's certainly a correlation dude. how about you shut the fuck up and actually read the articles I linked instead of just yapping on incessantly
in the latest one it explains literal ways we can still keep ourselves safe WITHOUT projects like f35.but I guess you missed that point?
ayeyeye
China's J-35 may be more capable than any other platform that NATO fields, batting the F-35. We are looking at a shooting war between the US and China before the end of the decade.
how does china do it with a fraction of our defense budget?? it must be fucking communism if you ask any Westerner kill lol china also invests more in public services.
The news is saying that China is spending as much as the US on their military.
Just wanted to point out that by TRILLIONS you mean the $1.7 trillion figure. Common misconception, that is the estimated lifetime cost. Lifetime meaning r&d + production of 2000 (?) units for the next 60+ years.
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-23-106047
once again it doesn't even matter the project is still hundreads of billions over budget. also just the fact that we haven't spent the money yet changes nothing.
you lads don't like to differentiate when it comes to actually useful public spending like healthcare initiatives or education reform.
so why should I distinguish here? in fact you're right. that figure will likely INCREASE
keep coping. keep coping that its actually good spending and that its all a okay. keep coping while people die and can't afford healthcare. while logistics companies struggle on failing infrastructure
honestly this has to be a joke if you think it changes anything. smh
I'm done with this convo.
my point is that its fucking dumb pointing out uae when America does dumb things on a much larger scale. we deserve at least 10x edits lmap
also we use slave labor here as well. look into the prisons
you pointing out that 'actually we haven't spent the full 1.7 trillion yet... we're just 183 billion over budget rn and those are just lifetime costs is honestly so dumb and distinction that adds nothing else to the conversation and doesn't change the fact that literal air force pilots hate the damn thing and you guys are over here posturing endlessly
how is this site worse than Reddit lol.
https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0053_defense-comparison
the amount of defense propagandists is honestly sickening on this thread. how about you guys roll this hard for things that actually help the people and not some malfunctioning stealth jet
when we could easily just don't omit selling our current arsenal. do you guys realize how vast out arsenal already is! how deep our ties are economically to our allies? that we make guns too that sell way faster than jets? like why are you so attached to a failing jet project?
it's honestly funny. and then I have all the like Lockheed Martin employees just down voting me because they don't wanna hear that their prize project is actually garbage and more 'justified' defense spending lollololol.
you guys are insane if you don't already think our current k military is more than capable. I'm so sick of this arms race bullshit. you guys are fighting a ghost at this point. f35s ain't gonna scare china. it's not gonna scare russia. it's just bs. and by the way... diplomacy is a thing too. sooo we could always try that.
I'm just saying we don't need another fucking jet. we just don't.
As a Finn, I'm much more glad about this sorta spending than some gaudy buildings
what are you talking about mate. I'm saying I want them to spend it on healthcare... on housing.... on transportation and better infrastructure.
and by the way. I'd take the gaudy buildings over a fucking malfunctioning (a pilot just recently had to EJECT DURING A TEST FLIGHT) .. expensive to maintain stealth jet (1.7 trillion JUST FOR THIS) when we already have the world's largest arsenal by far. which....btw what do you suppose we do with all the jets and arsenal we already have!??? how is this not just us yet again over manufacturing. what war are we going to start next to justify this.
it's so sickening
what are you talking about mate
Finland is in NATO. USA is the main power in NATO. Big USA military good for us.
Jesus Christ we already have a big military wtf are you on about?
you're saying us doesn't already have a big military?!
I don't know if you've been drinking or something but no I said nothing like that.
As a Finn he doesn't personally benefit from U.S. citizens having affordable health care but the weapons they develop may be used to protect HIS homeland. Like everyone else he has personal interests.
oh yea nobody benefits from the people making their products being happier and healthier. lol this is you rn
They generally don't. All the possible benefits are very abstract and very long term. If you can get people to give a fuck its because of in your face humanity and decency not such abstractions.
what? okay so we should just allow mistreating your working class then? wtf are you on about
okay bud since taking care of your working class doesn't matter I hope you get misttreated at your job then some shut happens and you have no-one to turn to. it's insane you would even insinuate that taking care of your populations needs and keeping workers happy isn't something worth caring about holy shit.
you guys just love the boot on here or something it's wild or maybe you guys are all like Harvard grad executives or somethin. so out of touch imo.
obviously you wanna keep your workers happy, obviously it doesn't seem to be a priority at all and that's okay with you guys lol. it's so wild to me.
I'm just saying there's way better needs to be met than hundreads of billions into a jet that still has plenty of issues even today
you guys getting so mad about that only proves how brainwashed we are its insane.
a jet won't keep away ww3.we can improve our current forces without getting freaking milked bs constantly taking the worst part of the deal. also diplomacy is a thing maybe we should reply more on diplomatic charisma than military might.. which by the way is not a ll the end all be all.
insane leaders will still do insane things. again we already have an insane arsenal that we should just be taking care of and putting money into rather than just abandoning it.
I'm just saying the way we spend on military is incredibly inefficient and unneeded -,-
literally I've linked to government sites of like government organizations that track shit like this like they even know they're getting fucked and you guys are on here like white knighting the us govt it's wild
and ww3 is gonna happen not from putin but from the insanely unstable conditions WE FUCKING CREATED (look up bitter lake.. excellent documentary on this)
that is where instability and power (from oil money) is rn. not saying that we shouldn't support Ukraine but just that its popular red herring rn. there is already a genocide going on.. and we are funding it.
To recap. He said as a person in a threatened NATO country he was glad we spent lots of money on our military because it might be needed to help protect his country. You said something on the order of "what are you even talking about" I explained this in smaller words.
You said some warm fuzzy stuff and I said if you wanted people to care you had to make them care about people not abstractions. You then went off on 17 tangents and that brings us up to date.
You seem to feel like I've taken a contrary position everything you've ever said or indeed thought based on you projecting everything your mad about onto me. Have you considered having a coffee and leaving and coming in again?
also lets not forget. the gaudy buildings won't be used to commit yet more war crimes that get hand waved away. so imo I'll take the fucking buildings.
we need more gaudy buildings here every fucking city looks the same it's all surburbia fucking cars nightmare.
commit yet more war crimes
or defend a country from a fascist genociding dictator LIKE PUTIN. WE ARE SEEING IT IN REAL TIME. You think he'll stop with Ukr?? The countries bordering Ru sure don't think so, nor the rest of NATO.
Wake the fuck up, the world is far more complex than "don't modernize any defense resources, nothing will ever happen except for the possibility of war criming others!"
Do ya see how fucking short sighted and ridiculous that is?
also my brother in Christ we support Israel which is genociding rn. we also genocided the native Americans and so I still don't get your point. you sound so headass it's funny. and yes putin may not stop with Ukraine but that's because he's putin. again he's not gonna give a fuck about some jet. they have nukes bro. if he wanted to do some crazy shit he would. and a jets not gonna stop him. they have nukes. wake the fuck up we need proper diplomacy not another fucking jet get it through your head.
like I said. the us isn't some helpless damsel. we already have the world's most advanced arsenal OVERALL Only thing aircraft wise is maybe chinass j35 but again.
we are already funding a genocide. in a much more unstable region mind you. the world is more complex than 'fund new jet to prevent war!' and again there are other ways we could modernized the arsenal rather than finding failure over bloated projects like the f35. btw the us is only recently landing f35s in the UK raining area F-35 fighter jets land in NATO-member Denmark to replace F-16s, some of ... https://apnews.com/article/denmark-ukraine-f35-f16-fighter-jets-2470e553fd7211a02e5f50f8e787d213 so I doubt its had much impact on what putin does.
I think star link and elons antics weigh more than the f35s honestly.
and again Russia is a nuclear power. ultimately unless we can deal with that. the only way is to s9me sort of negotiation. not endless war lol. a new shiny jet is not the own you think it's gonna be on putin. people like trump just say shit like that and you guys eat it up. reality is Russia has always been not at the same level as NATO led forces. however that STILL didn't stop what is happening.
so many people were like it could not happen it would be dumb Russia doesn't have the caabillity and yet they STILL did it.
so why the fuck are you coming in here like yea you don't know what you're talking about the f35 is actually exactly what we need to prevent this stuff. when all it would do at best is give us a slight more of an edge when shit inevitably hits the fan because you don't deal with a fucking nuclear power by brandashing better jets. this isn't fucking gta dude.
NATO in its current form could already deal with threat from putin. why the fuck do you think Ukraine wants to join? alliances and strategic diplomatic actions are how you deal with this not fucking jets while your people starve, end up homeless, and are unable to pay for healthcare or not having enough savings to cover a 200$+ accident.
like we need to pay more fucking attention here domestically dude. wake the fuck up.
also your last ooo U is so fucking absurd. we can don't need the f35 to modernize our defense resources we need to retire the older models we still use and upgrade to what we already can.
an ad again I ask you who is the us at threat from seriously? you'll prolly sya like china or Russia when in fact it's our own dumbasses and misappropriation that's going to ruin the country. by not investing in the population duhh
sick whataboutism
keep yelling into the void with this whataboutism bullshit, i see you just reply to yourself over and over lmao.
Anyway, it is absolutely NOT the same, not even because LM isn't the goddamn US gov, but a contractor. The F-35 isn't some wild pie in the sky bullshit that is completely unreasonable so they just throw money and slaves at it. In addition to this, you fail to realize (or conveniently fail to mention) just how much is actually learned from these projects. Does that make it worth it, not on it's own but again that is orders of magnitude different then the projects the UAE push that this meme is referencing.
Lastly, if you actually looked into it, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement
The F-35 Lightning II was conceived from the start of the project as having participation from many countries,** most of which would both contribute to the manufacture of the aircraft and procure it for their own armed forces. While the United States is the primary customer and financial backer, the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark agreed to contribute US$4.375 billion toward the development costs of the program.**[1] Total development costs are estimated at more than US$40 billion, while the purchase of an estimated 2,400 planes is expected to cost an additional US$200 billion.[2] Norway has estimated that each of their planned 52 F-35 fighter jets will cost their country $769 million over their operational lifetime.[3] The nine major partner nations, including the U.S., plan to acquire over 3,100 F-35s through 2035,[4] which, if delivered will make the F-35 one of the most numerous jet fighters.
Jet fighters are not dumbass shit. Fucking full stop. Just look how impactful air superiority has been in Ukraine. But nah, fuck off right? Just tell all those eastern countries that daddy putin will take care of em. No need to continue to modernize your defenses!
You cry this place is worse then reddit, so fucking LEAVE.
once again. keep crying. jets are dumb ass shit we don't need the f35s we would still have stu superiority. russias military is a joke compared to the current us arsenal what the fuck are you even talking about. f35 is dumb it's a dumb ass project. also LM contract with the govt... and gets tax payer dollars so wtf are you even on about?
and again I would still say it's a dumb ass project when we could be reinvesting that money directly back Into our country and building better roads and railways.
and if you'd have bothered to read nothing you pointed out in that Wikipedia copy paste is new info to the conversation I don't care other countries are invested I to it. and also that's only pure buying costs not maintanance and also retiring current jet fighters.
maybe you should read. gov articles I linked earlier.
I'll end it again with fuck the f35 project there's far far bettter things to spend that money on.
also your point about stopping putin is so silly. that's a completely different budget. you do realize that ONTOP of this dumbass f35 project we still send money to ukraine?
and also wtf is your point putin is still invading. even with the f35 program? like what is it stopping. why do you guys think just adding more firepower will somehow magically stop conflict it's wild. it's a fallacy.
the jet is dumb we can roll it out it won't change the amount of war because war is called by instabillity and there are other ways to fix that. we already have nukes as the ultimate deterannt a fucking jets not gonna have more sway than a nuke when it comes to hmmm which country am I invading. we're good like a jet isn't the end all be all to that. it's whether or not you're in nato.
dude we already have nuclear submarines and fucking air craft carriers like gtfo here with your MIC propaganda like we're some defenseless maiden strolling through the woods without yet more BILLIONS going into this shit when people here are starving and burdened with medical debt and literally going homeless bro.
you need to fucking wake up
how many f35s being used in Ukraine rn?
and it's just... make a scaled down f-22.... such corrupt bullshit.