The DNC gave Kamala Harris a big boost
The DNC gave Kamala Harris a big boost
The campaign raised over $80 million while attracting an army of volunteers.
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Sorry to rain on the joyful circlejerk, but please remember that truth and justice Kamala came out as solidly in line with Biden’s genocide policy book. Sorry, I like Walz too, but this is not acceptable.
Really? You guys will start with that again? No candidate that can actually be elected (i.e. a Democrat or a Republican) will side with Palestine, that's the reality you live in, now pick your poison.
Don't engage, just block.
Foreign agent trolls or lack-of-critical-thinking-clowns
Neither are worth your time.
Unfortunately one needs to address the mold in the room, lest it propagates. Their entire MO is spreading their message and sowing doubt with just one person. If there is no opposition voice, then they become more convincing unfortunately.
Ok, I pick the poison in which I call out the awfulness of genocide and its perpetrators, be they presidents, candidates, constituents, or commenters on forums. Also, who are the “you guys” you are referring to here? Sounds like you are talking about the people outraged by injustice, racism and genocide. Perhaps it’s the people trying to apply moral standards consistently? I know that concept can be annoying when you’re feeling good about an election, but why should I care when the stakes are so high? The dynamic you’re describing is a self-fulfilling prophecy, a lame excuse for allowing depravity, and ultimately the reason why we keep electing terrible leaders.
No, it's not people trying to apply moral standards consistently, it's about people thinking that cutting off arms to Israel would save the Gazans when high-end military aid is not actually necessary for an ethnic cleansing of a small land area, simply a luxury. Following the wishes of the BDS movement, at any time since the war began, would not save the Gazans in any way, shape or form when the Israelis can simply resort to even more indiscriminate, inexpensive tactics to accomplish their goals. In actuality, all it would do is remove what little leverage we actually have over there.
Not that I expect peace protestors to understand much about the logistics of warfighting, I am fully aware it's just about identifying something negative and fighting it as hard as you can. Unfortunately, though, the lack of understanding makes your proposed solutions simply wishful thinking that fails to take Netanyahu's precarious political position and potential available methods and resources into account. We see this with climate change as well, where we still have no actual viable solutions for emissions in Russia or India, simply because climate experts are not geopolitics experts.
Oh, listen people. We can’t stop providing aid, or selling arms, or providing intelligence and logistical support, or political cover in the international community or sending carrier group after carrier group in to threaten their neighbors, or else we might lose leverage over them. In short, you’re saying we have to do everything possible to enable their crimes, or we might lose the ability to influence their criminal behavior. Please examine how absurd that sounds. The dynamic you’re describing makes this sound vastly more complex than it is. This approach is frequently used by those on power to absolve themselves from responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Furthermore, if economic pressure doesn’t work, I guess we can go ahead and open up Russia trade again. Right?
Sanctions against Israel would probably be effective, but impractical when they were attacked and still have a significant amount of support in the populace. You could get some Americans behind neutrality, but not helping hamas.
I don't disagree that it sounds absurd, but global politics just very often is, due to its fundamentally unethical nature. At that scale people are not individuals, they are numbers on a sheet of paper, simply because of the purely mechanical perspective of so many world leaders. At the end of the day, you have to work with what you've got, whether absurd or otherwise. It's not about absolving, guilt is guilt. It's about there being no guilt-free paths, so this guilt is preferable to the guilt even greater Palestinian casualties. ~50k have died, right? You know that absolutely could be 500k, right?
And if you don't think the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is genuinely complex, you're probably buying into someone's bullshit. It is very complex.
Lastly, it's a pretty gross exaggeration that we're doing everything we can to enable their crimes. If we were, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left anymore. They're not that hard to kill.
It’s not easy, actually, to kill or cleanse millions of people while maintaining some semblance of legitimacy in the international community.
Leaders don’t craft their ideologies on what they believe Americans will ‘get behind’. Leaders will attempt to steer Americans to the right position. Harris and this community are all proud of what a righteous leader she’s supposed to be. I’m just holding her to the standard set by her own rhetoric.
You underestimate Netanyahu's pragmatism. He knows full well he can get rid of them all, and take the shame with him when he's dead. He's probably correct too. Do people blame Germany or Hitler for the Holocaust? Israel isn't going anywhere, they have nukes. Even if the US abandons them, there are other global factions.
Good leaders don't have set ideologies. They deal with realities, not ideals, and shift their opinions and perspectives based on what they learn. This is because they recognize they are humans leading other humans, and capable of making mistakes. No set ideology can keep up with all the varied circumstances that real life can throw at a country. Then in our country, we run them, not the other way around. They are always at our mercy. FDR knew this, and despite greatly wanting to help Britain in WW2, had to remain very careful about it until Pearl Harbor.
Also, I think you overestimate Harris' righteousness, I do not see what you are describing. I think most dems realize she's a pragmatist, she was a prosecutor after all. Throwing folks in prison is not a very idealistic job, that would be more public defender. Prosecutor is messy. What she absolutely is is several times better than her opponent, and something new, being a woman.
For the record, I strongly suspect that the kind of nihilism that you are describing does in fact mostly describe how the US operates. It’s a very succinct explanation of why we are as awful a nation as we are and why we slide further toward autocracy with each administration.
It's not nihilism, that's an ideology. If it's any ideology, it's liberalism, recognizing that the will of the population determines the course of the nation, regardless of the good or evil that the population desires.
I don't see how a different ideology could prevent the forces that are currently pushing us towards despotism, either. People are too susceptible to believing bullshit, with entire false realities being spun up in people's minds. It's just wishful thinking to believe that some great leader could come by and suddenly everyone would "wake up" and "see". They'd still be manipulated into fear and anger by the authoritarian opposition.
Fortunately we're not lost yet. The Palestinians aren't completely doomed either, Netanyahu remains unable to finish the job and maintain our support, and his right wingers are growing more impatient with him. With some election reform we might be able to turn the tide on the far right here at home, too, though that's harder with the filibuster still in place and us having nowhere near 60 Senate seats.
Sooooo the stakes for women, LGBTQ+ and migrants actually living in the USA (you know, the country the elections are for) aren't high enough but you draw the line at foreign policies and you'll push people to not vote and therefore open the door to the Republicans (who will support that genocide even more than the Democrats) by insisting that Harris bad?
And yes, you guys, all the people who kept saying you wouldn't vote because of Biden's stance on Israel, ignoring all other issues because somehow the death the Republicans will cause in North America if they win count for nothing but the deaths Israel are causing in Palestine count for everything. You're just part of the Russian division machine to try and get the Republicans in power.
You will find no bigger critic of Republican fascism than me. That doesn’t give Harris a pass for terrible policy, nor from the political consequences of them.
"you will find no bigger critic of the Republicans than me" they said while increasing the odds that they would win the elections
Honestly, how else do you suggest people exert influence over leadership in a democracy? The ‘campaign’ is an inconvenient time to debate these issues. Then, it will be ‘too early’ in her administration to debate these issues (why don’t we just give her a chance after-all!). Then it will be, ‘the electorate spoke when they voted her in. If you didn’t want this, why did you vote for her?’ Then it will be campaign time again.
If her position is an existential threat to her electability, then she is making a huge political mistake by taking this stance and you should call her out for endangering American democracy. If it isn’t, what are you complaining about?
"How else can people influence a government of the people by the people?"
You realize that one of the potential future vice President is an ex school teacher that decided to become a volunteer for a presidential candidate and that started his political involvement? Hell, even today he's worth less than the average for people his age so don't come and tell me you need to be rich to do it.
Not sure if you are responding to a different comment because this is confusing and not really addressing the point I made. Are you suggesting that every single constituent who has an opinion should run for office?
No, I'm saying you've got the power to change things if you want but if you can't be bothered to get involved then the least you can do is vote for the best option you've got and don't try and discourage people from voting because all you're doing is helping the worst option.
Don't make your involvement in politics an involvement against democracy.
Both sides are baaaaaaad!
They already have. Don't you think it's a little weird these "both sides are the same, don't vote!" trolls are only active right before a presidential election?
Oh I know they were doing it with Biden, but with Kamala as well? Fucking hell they're relentless
Sorry to rain on your joyful grandstanding, but it's either Trump or Harris — and Harris & Biden have both expressed FAR more sympathy toward the Gazan people and trying to negotiate a permanent ceasefire than Trump.
... Meanwhile Bibi is trying to do everything he can to get Trump elected, while Trump violated the Logan Act and contacted Bibi directly to NOT take the ceasefire deal.
I’m sure Palestinians really appreciate Biden and Harris’ sympathies as they are misted by the bombs they sent over that were guided by the intelligence they provided.
All the talk about ceasefire negotiations is an intentional distraction. Israel isn’t participating in negotiations as evidenced by the fact that they assassinated the main Hamas guy running negotiations.
Claiming that opposition to Harris’ terrible policy position is somehow supportive of trump is dishonest and misleading. That attitude is a big reason why we keep electing such terrible leaders.
trumps Logan Act violations should be prosecuted, absolutely, just like Biden’s violations of the Leahy Law should be prosecuted.
Hmmm, let's see... If I'm a Palestinian...
And I see Harris/Biden:
- Trying to negotiate a permanent cease-fire
- Increasingly distancing themselves from the Netanyahu administration
- Establishing aid routes into Gaza
... And I see Trump:
- Saying Israel "needs to finish what they started."
- Calling Netanyahu to NOT take the Ceasefire deal (similar to how he blocked the Border Patrol endorsed border legislation)
... Then I have to take an educated guess and say that I don't think Harris or Biden are actually psychopathic narcissists who worship strong-men dictators like Trump does and I have to think that Trump will not care how many of us die... So I'd rather deal with strategic gaming of the electorate to ensure Democrats win in the next 2.5 months as opposed to risking a Trump presidency and having NO support for at least 4 years.
This "inTenTioNAl DiStrActIoN" thing is unfounded and utter speculation. What Netanyahu decides to do does NOT negate what Harris/Biden are trying to do. Be better.
Biden and Harris might be negotiating, but Israel is not. For Biden and Harris to willfully misrepresent that fact is mostly where I base my claims about negotiations being a stalling tactic.
Biden and Harris have done nothing to distance themselves from Netanyahu. If anything, Harris doubled down on her support for his administration in her DNC speech.
Aid into Gaza has been pathetically inadequate. Given that the US is the power broker in this region, it’s difficult to argue that this isn’t intentional.
trump is a monster. No argument there.
I don’t think that Biden and Harris are ‘psychopathic narcissists’. I do think that Biden is ideologically bound to supporting Israel’s racist apartheid goals. I’ve been hoping for meaningful signs that Harris is different than him, but her DNC speech was a clear attempt to align herself with his policies. So, that’s disheartening.
I agree that voting for Harris is harm reduction and that given the options, that course gives us the possibility of influence whereas the alternative prevents that. However, pressure needs to be applied to Harris or nothing will change. Pressure during the election has more efficacy than afterward. If her stance on this is actually enough to deny her the win, then she is making a huge political mistake by ‘cozying up’ to a genocide policy.
I base my ‘intentional distraction’ claim on almost a year of toothless rhetoric from Biden, preceded by decades of similar obfuscations from administration after administration.
It may be of interest to you to read this discussion thread I had with another user here. Without too much repeating I think we're on the same side largely; but I definitely put a lot of weight on the rock-and-a-hard-place Biden/Harris is with courting different voting groups and ensuring Gazans don't have to deal with 4 years of Trump instead of 4 years of Harris. So I'm extremely cautious with only 71 days until election day to jeopardize any risk to that.
These people are gonna be pissed anyway when they find out the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in this war is one of the lowest if not the lowest in urban warfare history.
Uh yeah... Let's not go that far and remember the incompetency of the IDF: Killing their OWN 3 hostages who had raised white flags and were unarmed, or that time they annihilated a humanitarian aid convoy who had properly sought clearance from IDF command ahead of their trek.
At the current rate, Israel is happily lining up 3-4 Gaza civilians — half of whom being women & children — and executing them for each Hamas soldier they claim was in the alleged vicinity. They know this, and yet they pull the trigger anyway.
They're not the good guys.
Yeah im gonna vote for the party that hasn't been actively creating laws for the past 15 years that are trying to kill my family and friends.
I get it. Just like you, I’ll probably vote for the party that’s been passively enabling those very same policies. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t call out the awful positions our candidates take, or challenge constituents on the exuses they make for them.
Keeping an eye on Harris' stance on the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza, Sanders made sure to bring that up, saying, “I think, in all fairness to the vice president, she’s been the candidate for all of one month. And it’s been a hell of a month. You have to organize the convention, select a vice presidential campaign, get out on the campaign trail. So, they are still working through their policies.”
The issue is not complicated and she has crafted a campaign around her own moral goodness. Sanders’ expectations are far too low. In any case, she has apparently settled on policy. She settled on Biden’s policy, as she described in her big speech.
Kamala has been pretty consistent on saying that what's happening in Gaza is absolutely unacceptable and she cannot turn a blind eye to it. It's the most harsh rhetoric we've seen from people in high leadership positions.
The problem is that she then pairs those statements with the exact same rhetoric that Netanyahu and Biden use obfuscate the genocide campaign (“will always defend Israel’s right to defend, yadda yadda yadda”). I appreciate that some of her language is a tiny bit better than Biden, but that just not enough. She has to show some of this ‘leadership’ quality that the DNC keeps bragging about. There must be some policy shift proposed. Otherwise her language is about as meaningless as trump’s empty claims that he’ll end the war in Ukraine as president elect.
It's a tricky line to balance. The entire Democrat base doesn't want to say fuck Israel, we're pulling out (even if I'd like for us to). So far she seems to be balancing quite well however.
There really isn't anything wrong with Israel going after Hamas. They have that right. The problem is that they're just bombing blindly and going "did we get them?", and it creates a situation where those they hurt now have the right to seek revenge against the Israeli government.
Abstaining does less than nothing for the actual victims of the genocide in question. You think the dems are going to change their stance on Palestine because a bunch of leftists are withholding their votes? Most of their corporate donors are most likely either pro-Israel or don't care. They're going to decide it's a safer play for them to pivot right to try and scoop up lukewarm centrist dipshits, guaranteed. Things get worse for women, immigrants, LGBT people, and the working class in general but hey! At least your hands are clean!
The way to effect electoral change that may actually have a snowballs chance in hell of helping Palestinians is to support anti-genocide reps in primaries and local elections. Get your city to pass ordinances boycotting Israeli products, accepting Palestinian refugees, and supporting international aid organizations. Even if your good local reps can't make any of that happen, you're getting more anti-genocide policy makers in the system who may run for higher offices next cycle.
Leftist organizing has always been from the ground up. If you want an anti-genocide president (which I fucking do too!), then work on creating the infrastructure to produce one instead of stomping your feet and insisting the Overton Window move your way ex nihilo.