Catholic Church To Excommunicate Priests for Following New US State Law
Catholic Church To Excommunicate Priests for Following New US State Law
The Justice Department is investigating whether the new law violated the First Amendment.
The Catholic Church has issued a warning to its clergy in Washington state: Any priest who complies with a new law requiring the reporting of child abuse confessions to authorities will be excommunicated.
https://www.newsweek.com/catholic-church-excommunicate-priests-following-new-us-state-law-2069039
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Separation of church and state goes both ways.
Confession is a religious rite. Try to legislate that rite is a violation of that separation.
Priests are bound by their office to maintain absolute confidentiality of confessed sins. Otherwise people are not likely to confess their sins.
It doesn’t matter how you, personally, feel about this or their religion or the value of confession as a sacrament, that’s their religion. The state doesn’t get to intervene.
The church should stay out of state affairs, and the state should stay out of church affairs. Exceptions exist, like when practices are outright criminal in themselves. But the state cannot compel a priest to violate their office. This is long accepted. You cannot compel a priest to testify about confession, for example.
Priests can encourage people to go to the police, but that’s it. Their role in confession is between the sinner and their god.
Try to legislate that rite is a violation of that separation.
No. Secular law takes precedent. For example, a religion practicing human sacrifice, cannibalism, rape or slavery would be shut down, and rightly so.
Separation of church and state means that laws are not made that explicity refer to religious practices. But that does not imply that any aspect of religious practice is above the law.
Secular law takes precedent. For example, a religion practicing human sacrifice, cannibalism, rape or slavery would be shut down, and rightly so.
I do cover that in a later comment.
Confession and its confidentiality has already been upheld in legal precedent.
Yeah religion is a great cover for abusing kids.
This isn't about priests abusing kids (though that's definitely a recurring issue as well), it's about people who have done so confessing such to a priest.
I'm not religious so don't really have any stake in this, but it's interesting that it is specifically about child sex abuse and not other major crimes such as rape, murder etc. That makes me worried as "for children" is often used as a testing ground for stuff that will be expanded upon later, and there's a lot of stuff people likely confess - supposedly under strict confidence - to their religious figures.
Along with the laity, priests must also go to confession. So it does provide cover for priests abusing kids.
This is disgusting, doctors need to report the same thing. Its child abuse its basically saying you support pedofilia. Unless that's what you're covering up in your thinly veiled argument. The Catholic church should not be a safe haven for pedophiles.
This is disgusting, doctors need to report the same thing.
Doctors are not religious figures. Doctor patient confidentiality is not an absolute protected by the first amendment (with legal precedent).
Its child abuse its basically saying you support pedofilia. Unless that's what you're covering up in your thinly veiled argument.
That’s a nice false equivalence. I’m impressed that you managed to get from “priests cannot be compelled by the state to violate their religious office” to supporting pedophilia.
The Catholic church should not be a safe haven for pedophiles.
I agree. That’s a larger problem though.
A larger problem addressed by bills just like this.
Therapists are allowed to maintain confidentiality.
No they are not.
Therapists are subject to mandatory reporting laws.
Is this true? I thought with things like danger to oneself or others they're mandated reporters.
They are.
Source: wife is a therapist. She is also ethically obligated to (and does) disclose her mandatory reporting obligations to new clients.
They have some obligations in cases of child endangerment or suicide, direct threats to others. I'm not sure of the details, if it's similar expectations or what.
You're right, that commenter doesn't know what they're talking about
That's an interesting point. Maybe priests should have similar requirements, licensing, oversight, and malpractice liability.
More the point is that therapists don't have the same obligations as doctors. Therapists can keep confidentiality of things that doctors aren't allowed to. The guy i responded to was comparing priests to doctors, but a better comparison would be comparing them to therapists.
Are therapists not mandatory reporters in your jurisdiction?
They have more patient confidentiality than doctors, but I'm not sure of the specifics.
If you don't mind my asking, which country are you in? Therapists are mandatory reporters for child abuse everywhere in Canada/USA.
Also in the UK.
I don't mind you asking except that you are missing my point, which is that doctors have less patient confidentiality than therapists. I say this to contradict the original assertion that doctors report things, so priests should too, which is faulty logic. Comparing therapists to priests would be a better analogy in this context.
Ah I think that's the disconnect. In my country they're both mandatory reporters so the distinction seemed irrelevant to me.
Yep
There's a Christian duty to follow laws that are just as well. From a very Christian perspective, the right thing to do would be convincing them to confess outright at least.
I'm no priest and I was definitely never catholic, but that's how I see it as someone who grew up in a protestant house.
There’s a Christian duty to follow laws that are just as well.
If you read St Paul, the "that are just" clause appears nowhere. Instead, there is an absolute requirement to obey the authorities (though clearly they made an exception when the authorities were persecuting Christians, though some might argue that Christians are now effectively self-persecuting).
Hyup, I grew up semi-methodist, which honestly still colors my agnostic/atheistic beliefs today, and that whole vibe with Catholicism always missed me. Now that you mention it, the self-persecuting is very in-groupy too.
I can tell you that that's also what I got. The way confessions work, the priest gives you... "penance" is what it might be called? What you need to do to repent for your sins and be absolved of them. Usually that's some prayer, but they can tell you that you have to turn yourself in and admit to your crimes to the police.
I have no idea if priests actually do that, and I imagine with the secrecy it'd be hard to get any information.
Well put. At a point it would be the only way to be "right with god" in the first place.
In the end the system is eerily, well, identical to American cops protecting their own. At least it makes Thin White Line kinda funny for a few reasons.
Exceptions exist, like when practices are outright criminal in themselves
Aiding and abetting criminals is a crime.
How does receiving a confession aid or abet the perpetrator?
You're right, having done some light wikipedia-ing, emotional support such that a priest provides would make him an accessory.
Psychiatrists are legally obligated to report knowledge of certain crimes that would otherwise be protected by confidentiality laws, I don't see why priests should be any different.
emotional support such that a priest provides would make him an accessory
That does not appear to be true, unless the crime is being planned or in progress.
But even if it somehow did, you'd effectively be demanding a priest self-incriminate by admitting to the contents of a confession.
It's called "accessory after the fact", and they wouldn't be guilty of it if they report it, that's the whole point of reporting it.
An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being committed, will be committed, or has been committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way. The assistance to the criminal may be of any type, including emotional or financial assistance as well as physical assistance or concealment.
they wouldn’t be guilty of it if they report it
Imagine believing this given the current state of the criminal justice system
Psychiatrists don't get arrested for reporting on patients when the law requires it, this is no different. You're thinking of whistleblowers and functional regulation enforcement agency employees. Now, if the confessor in question is, like, the mayor or something, then yeah, Father's fucked.
Psychiatrists
Thank you, this was the comparison I was looking for and the standard I would hold for this. I agree with your assessment.
What if the priest doest't provide emotional support
Then they won't know about the crime to begin with. The very act of listening to the confession and advising spiritual penance provides emotional support.
«Bless me father for I have sinned: I have a sex slave in my basement. I rape him every day because I cannot control myself."
You don't report that and you're siding the continue commission of a crime.
Overall you're right about the first amendment, but it feels like that separating only goes one way, and I'm tired of religion getting the better side of it.
It's also so selective. I can't kill a live chicken to practice Santeria but it's fine for orthodox jews on Kaporos? We can't compel a priest to report a murder or testify but they can tell their constituents to vote for the candidate that bans women's healthcare?
If a child says my dad touches me at night and you do nothing you belong in jail
Pretty much describing how we ended up with the Satanic Panic
There's two sides to this coin. Getting children - particularly young children who don't understand what they're being asked - to confess and accuse people of crimes is trivially easy.
Except in that case, people never confessed to anyone. Instead, religious fanatic adults knowingly or not coached children to provide details of abuse. Most of the accounts were physically impossible or supernatural in nature. Fundies were involved, so what else would you expect?
So, nothing like this case at all. In the Satanic Panic, there was no credible, actionable information. Just a feedback cycle of ignorant rumor that led to (nominally) secular authorities being manipulated into taking action that was a miscarriage of justice against innocent people.
You know what that's fair. This is the "just" thing to do.
I still do hope priests will try to fix it in their own communities tho.