Greercase @ Greercase @lemmus.org

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111

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9 mo. ago

What a well balanced sentiment. I responded to Dandelion elsewhere in this thread, and though it was not explicitly about Daoism, this conclusion was present there as well. This concept of not being responsible for or antagonistic to the darkness and learning to navigate through while acknowledging it seems to be the only way forward at times, but the idea that no matter what we do, as either individuals or a society, we will not be able to excise the worst of ourselves still feels unsettling. For now, acknowledging and working toward being better has to be enough, but the thought that it will never get better on the balance of it seems defeatist. Maybe I am approaching from the wrong place here, but that doesn't seem like a hopeful philosophy as much as a subsistence philosophy. Not that philosophy needs to be hopeful or inspiring, but it makes me sad to think people wake up every day and do their best while legitimately believing things on the whole will not or cannot improve. If I didn't think that doing my best was contributing not just to balancing my worst, but to actually improving myself and the world, I don't know if I'd be able to be so cheery about it. And I'm not particularly cheery about it to begin with lol.

It was likely an issue on my end interpreting. I took the stereotype thing as a critique on the concept of the film being feminist, which I should not have done considering your recent comment. For what it's worth, I think having some stereotype conformity and nonconformity makes the characters more realistic to me, but I can see how it can seem more like they're just a madlibs of stereotypes than real people to others.

I totally agree with your idea that it likely depends on who is talking about it. Now that you bring this up I feel like I need to add context to my statement. I think you are right to say it's not a "feminist" film. I think it qualifies as a "feminist kids movie" because my personal bar for feminism in children's media is quite low, but now that I think more about it, it really needs that qualifier "for a children's movie". I appreciate you adding that perspective. Using Miyazaki as a standard is so smart. Those works are definitely thoughtful explorations of characters that feel earnest in a way that defies framing as anything but honest. I am not sure how much commercialization affected the story as much as just the people writing it, but there's definitely an element of high tempo frantic excitement that is common in a lot of more commercial works whereas Miyazaki definitely wants you to sit with his characters. I went on a Lars von Treir kick years ago and came away from those films with a completely opposite perspective! Lol. I will have to watch them again and get back to you if my feelings have changed since.

Totally valid reasoning, not that you needed me to say that. The good place is an absolute gem. The only show I've rewatched in its entirety.

it is so much worse unfortunately than a single child being tortured - and even that seems too much

That resonates so deeply with me and likely with so many others here. Very well put.

Wow. I was addressing your comment as I was reading it and then I got to the remainder and quite frankly I don't know how to respond. The lengths you went through seem so profound. I'm sorry that the world is the way it is and has caused so much hurt in your life and the lives of so many and that it will likely continue to do so. For what it's worth, I think settling on a healthy acknowledgement of the issues and some personal responsibility, without allowing it to consume you is the best way to go about it. The line is different for everyone, but it seems like you have found or are finding yours and that's so important. I really respect your ability to evolve and grow to be better for those in your life and around the world. I really believe that if enough of us had that mindset real change could happen, and all we have to do as individuals is to embody that and demonstrate it for others. Thank you for that reminder.

I really enjoyed Ted Lasso, and I think it's great that you brought up that mentality here. It's a really lovely outlook. I wish I could find more grace within myself sometimes, and that is a great reminder.

I also run to the Internet as soon as I finish something I don't like. I like to have the reassurance that I'm not the only one that sees these huge issues. More often than not, at least someone has brought them up, which definitely gives me solace. Maybe this goes back to giving other people grace, but I similarly have never finished something I disliked and wondered what was wrong with me. I always just thought that everyone else was wrong. LMAO.  I made a post here a while back about the new Superman movie. Really, the only reason I posted it is because I was basically exclusively seeing glowing praise for it. I think it was the first thing that I had big problems with that no one else had explicitly addressed. Maybe people have sense, but at the time it was extremely frustrating.

I mentioned in a reply to the comment you're replying to, but I am personally giving it a little more leeway because it seems to be tapping into a specific culture where that body type is popular. I don't really know much about the idol culture, and I'm not saying that's good or positive, but it is possibly an accurate reflection of the current cultural moment. I am definitely speaking out of ignorance, so feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. Obviously, I support all kinds of diversity, including body diversity, but in this case I was willing to give it quite a big pass.

I also agree about the end result for the demons. Again, I really don't have enough cultural context to speak intelligently on that, but I appreciate you adding about the reversal of culturally thematic elements for feminine and masculine.  I didn't explicitly mind that there was no "happily ever after" for everyone. If a certain culture or even a certain work wants to suggest that people who do bad things have bad things happen to them and that's just how the world works, I'm not going to fault it for that. I might not agree, but I am willing to give it that space to explore.

Interesting that you bring up the Barbie movie. I have so much to say about that, but I won't derail this here. I will just add that I think your reading is correct. It did not start out as a "feminist utopia". That was one of Margot Robbie's characters issues. It was this hyper saccharine commodified ideal of feminism. It wasn't a perfect movie, but her going to the gynecologist at the end of the movie basically makes your point, and it's the movies point. Feminism isn't girly pop "girls run the world" bs. It's every day equality that acknowledges women as full human beings who sometimes need to go to the gynecologist.

Regarding the last bit where you talk about yourself. I find myself in a somewhat similar situation sometimes. I first posted on here about the Superman movie, which seemed to be almost universally loved. I was really surprised that people walked away enjoying it so much. I've had lots of conversations about it at this point, and I think so many people just think "it's not that deep, bro". I'm willing to acknowledge that part of enjoying media may necessitate just turning your brain off, but there are some issues that are so egregious it makes it impossible to ignore. I think that line is different for everyone, and to a certain extent I think that you finding it hard to do so speaks to an unwillingness to overlook injustices even in media. Though that might not lead to great personal outcomes, it probably indicates a level of investment in equality that we should all aspire to.

The body diversity issue that you bring up is super valid. There were a couple side characters, like the older woman or audience members, that were different but I think I was just excited to see that they were not suffering from same face syndrome. I imagine the body type thing is inherited from idol culture which I will admit I know basically nothing about. I do know that they are generally perceived as overworked to achieve a certain aesthetic though. Would have loved to see more diversity in general, but this seemed to be tapping into a very specific cultural moment, and since I'm not plugged into idol culture I really can't speak to it.

I had to go back and actually listen to the lyrics. So funny that you bring that up. Even if you read the songs as though they are about abusive romantic partners, they are definitely talking about killing them. I didn't really think much about it, and I like to think I pay an inordinately large amount of attention to the lyrics of songs, so that's super funny to me. I imagine most of their fans were similarly just enjoying the beat, or were not taking it particularly literally. Appreciate you bringing that up though! Definitely worth a top level comment imho.

It's so interesting that you came away from it thinking it is not feminist due to the emotions and sexualization. I felt like that almost made it a "better" feminist work. Showing these powerful women also being emotionally available to one another was empowering, or as empowering as a commercialized and fictionalized portrayal can be. The same about them showing sexual interest. So many strong confident women are shown to be "too cool" and exude a detached style when it comes to romance, so I really liked the way that it humanized them and allowed them to be both powerful and sexual beings, without being sexualized. It wasn't quite a role reversal, but obviously the men were being sexualized by them and it didn't take away from their ability to fight them.

You mention this concept of femme phobia and the recycling of tropes, but also that you view the bathhouse and abs scenes as not feminist.  I would suggest that one of the differentiating factors here between characters like Buffy or generic superheroes is this willingness to be overtly emotional and obviously interested in sexuality. They are able to just say "oh, I find him attractive!" and not have that take away from their perceived power or confidence. 

To a certain extent I can see how this might fit into some people's personal experience with their gender identity or sexuality, but I agree with you that it does not resonate that way for me.

I'm really sorry to hear that the movie left you feeling that way. I would agree with you that there wasn't anything particularly novel about the premise or the "lesson", but I did still find it a fun watch. I think for a movie that was probably predominantly aimed at children, it was the appropriate level of complex, but it obviously lacked the nuance necessary to address these topics for a more experienced adult audience. I don't think that you are missing anything, or failing to draw necessary conclusions. Obviously, I can't speak to your experience, but I do try to meet works where they are at. This one probably hit the mark for its target audience, but you might prefer something more mature in its tone and theme. Unfortunately, I don't think the runtime of a standard movie will be able to deliver a message that is coherent and conclusive and not be able to be boiled down to platitudes, especially if it is aimed towards a younger audience. For what it's worth, I find myself feeling more or less the way that you described when it comes to anime in general. I have watched a few that people referred to as the best of all time and talk about how impactful it was on their life and their outlook, but I really just don't see it. It might just be that the genre or style of this work did not vibe with you. 

I'm not sure if you didn't mention it because You didn't have anything to say, or you would just prefer not to read it, but if you are looking for something more ambiguous and intellectually challenging, the suggested book can be read in less time than it would take to watch the movie, and might be more substantive for you. You don't have to justify not reading it, plenty of reasons not to, I just don't know of any movie that would satisfy that itch off the top of my head in a way that the book did. If I think of/come across one, I will let you know. 

PS: the tangents videos you suggested have heavily influence my reading and analysis this past month. I refer to a few in my comment.Can't stress enough how much I appreciate the suggestion. I tried to binge them all this month before posting, but fell short. I'll definitely have them finished by next month. 

I figure we would all just check back here at the end of the month (right now for me) and respond to comments that piqued our interest or prompted us to engage. I didn't want to coax anyone to a second location lol. This is potentially not be best format, but at the moment I don't know that a discord is needed. If it becomes something people really want to do, maybe after three or four successful months we can look into it. I don't want to set up that infrastructure if that's not generally wanted or if this is unlikely to be consistent. That is a great suggestion though. 

Wow! I didn't want to read anybody's comments prior to posting my own in case it would interfere with what I took away from it as a standalone text, but this is such great and interesting information.

Though in my comment I somewhat argued that it is not a fully feminist work, I definitely understand how it was written by a feminist and how that affected the content of it. I had no idea that she was a Daoist. I would be really interested to hear how that would affect her prescription for the way to "solve" the issue at the heart of the work. Obviously no solution is offered, but does she just consider it unsolvable at its very core? Are we all doomed to perpetuate injustice onto others until the end of time? I also understood it to be at least somewhat critical of those leave, and I had drawn a parallel between that and the 4B movement, with some obvious caveats. I wonder if removing yourself from the system while still somewhat participating in it as in the 4B movement would be viewed as better or worse from her perspective.  on the one hand, you are continuing to exist within the current framework, yet on the other hand you are rebelling against the framework and showing others something to emulate.

Thank you for that detailed history. It really adds additional layers to the work. 

The ones who walk away from Omelas

I will start by providing my interpretation while reading through a feminist lens. I don't necessarily think that is the most helpful lens for this particular work, but that is the lens I plan on using when I read works and analyze them for this community. I think it is interesting to know that the author mentions that the children are raised community, but the children are still referenced as walking with their mothers, and the child being tortured still calls for their mother. The author also refers to "workmen". I'm not sure that this is supposed to be her commentary on the inherent relationship mothers have with their children, or if even in her imagined utopia where she challenges us to examine our own preconceptions, even she cannot imagine a world wearing mothers are not the primary carers for their children.

There's also a note that she makes a point to mention that they are in advanced society. There is something to be said about associating advancement with exploitation and disharmony, but through an exclusively feminist perspective, advancement is often considered the domain of men. In recent Contrapoints tangent video that I was introduced to by Dandelion, contra explores a book that proposes that women are not driven to scientific advancement because they live in harmony with nature. When she references the games children play, they are not just playing amongst themselves or playing catch or ball, they are racing horses. She mentions that the horses do not have any gear and their harness does not have a bit, which would indicate they are compliant, but there was no need to include horses. They are the only animals mentioned, and they often serve to represent men's harmony with or exploitation of nature when referenced in literature. I don't think this is necessarily a central theme of this work, but it is interesting that she thinks it is important that this society be advanced in order for us to believe it is a utopia. Perhaps there is a through-line here that implies that ignorance is not bliss. She poses that knowing about the child makes people value their happiness more, so perhaps this is a reflection of that concept that knowing about the world inherently expands happiness. Again, I'm not saying that is the intent, just an interesting perspective when looked at.

It is interesting to know that a lot of the textual "arguments" used to explain away why it is best not to help the child, are said to be in the child's best interest. From a feminist/historical perspective you often see people make that argument regarding why an oppressed class should stay oppressed. People said that slaves preferred slavery, and that women are better off not being able to work. Hopefully we as readers are able to see through that, but since it's possible many generations have gone without seeing the cycle of oppression in the text, do you think they would or should be as able to identify those as inherently untrue?

She mentions that when people are first introduced to the concept behind their utopia they are still children. According to her, some people leave immediately after finding out. Do you think this is an oversight, or an exaggeration, or that 10 to 12 year-old children are leaving their homes because of what they have learned? Apparently they would be about the age that the child is. Do you think that is relevant? Do you think that in introducing this concept so early serves as a kind of indoctrination? Do you think more or less people would leave if they found out later in life to begin with? Do you think they introduce it to children because if the children want to leave as soon as they find out they will have less power to actually affect change if they were to stay? It is interesting to think about this through the perspective of children and the feminist idea of children's rights. Is this indoctrination, or education? Are they also being exploited? Are they really old enough to consent? 

There seems to be several interpretations regarding if the author believes that leaving is the best thing to do, or if people should stay and free the child. She mentions that there are other places outside of this utopian city, but explains that when the people leave it is hard to imagine what they will face. She uses this idea of things being hard to imagine also in reference to a utopia that does not have a dark underbelly. Do you think this would indicate that there truly is no good option, in any society, even the one built by these people that leave, will be inherently flawed? Do you think she is being prescriptive in what the best course of action would be? I couldn't fit this in more naturally, so I will just tack it on here, but I think it would be interesting to analyze "leaving" through more modern context such as the 4B movement. I'm American, so I can't speak on it too much, but my understanding is that women are removing themselves from aspects of society that they deem are to their detriment, and they seem to be lampooned for it. Would be interested in hearing someone with more firsthand experience share their opinions and opine on any relevance or parallels to how the exploitation of women in society and the reaction to it could be paralleled by the people in the story.

Some additional things I couldn't fit in elsewhere: She mentions that there are 18 mountains that's around this city. Do you think that number has any significance? 18 is the age of majority in the US, but otherwise I don't know what else it would be referencing. It seems strange to use such a specific number and not have had an intended purpose for it. This is information from outside the text, but she got the name from reading Salem, Oregon on a sign in her mirror while driving. Interesting that she would choose the name of a town famous for scapegoating women as witches. This is an interesting video that touches upon this work and works it is in conversation with. https://youtu.be/R_8vrTs_yDg

K-pop demon hunters

It is far more natural to read this work from a feminist perspective, so I have less novel things to say here. A creator I recently followed for their arcane content recently posted a video talking about how there is potentially still an element of the male gaze present in this movie during the pig out scenes. That was one of my main focuses during my rewatch for this discussion. In earnest, I did not find that to be the case.

In preparation for this response I tried to binge all of contrapoints tangents videos (thanks Dandelion). I failed to finish them all, but she has a one where she touches upon how "feminist" works now deemphasize sexuality to almost the detriment of the women being centered. I wanted to add here that I appreciate how they balanced that in this work. It doesn't end with her and the demon kissing or anything, but it does acknowledge the sexuality of the girls and offers a view into each of their behaviors towards people they are attracted to. It was nice to see women like a man that is "bad" and not have to change him or fight against their feelings. They acknowledge their attraction but understand that they don't have to act on it and that there are larger issues at play. In the case of our main character she also develops a deeper connection with her counterpart and that adds value and depth to their relationship without needing to be explicitly romantic in nature. It was nice to see something that's a departure from older works where they would have ended up together, and newer works like frozen, where an underlying attraction just isn't addressed.

Coming in clutch with formatting help again. Thank you! For what it's worth I didn't even think about trying to format it as a list, I just used the dashes for clarity, but I will edit it now since actually appearing as a list would be more helpful! Thank you for the information.

Glad to see it's making peoples to read list shorter rather than longer lol. Excited to read your thoughts on it!

So glad to hear it's helping you cross something off your list! Excited to read your thoughts!

Yes, definitely! I hope you'll consider providing some suggestions for future months. I think you posted a song on a different thread and I had not heard it before but it was great and lead me down a rabbit hole of melodic folk metal. You seem to be able to provide lots of novel references, and I really appreciate that! I don't have a broad base to draw from, so any additional perspectives are always welcome.

The thread is open to conversations as soon as it's posted! You can comment whenever you're ready. I'd suggest making it a top level comments though to ensure the most visibility/engagement. Excited to read your thoughts!

I figure people can read/watch/comment at their leisure through the month of September. Ideally responding to other comments that are there already, then hopefully revisit this thread at the end of September once everyone has posted just to see conversations that might not have been there when you posted. I will link this thread in next months thread and encourage people to revisit it and see if any new comments have been added since they last checked. Hopefully it's mostly wrapped up by the end of September, but there's nothing stopping people from visiting this far after that. I will try to respond to all top level comments so people know someone is engaging with their ideas, even if they respond after the designated month. I imagine the earlier comments will get more traction, but I'll at least read them all regardless.

Right? It's relatively short and in my opinion unfortunately eternally relevant, so I hope it'll encourage more participation! Excited to see people's takes.

Here is the post for the first month 🎉: https://lemmus.org/post/16011446

Here is the post for the first month 🎉: https://lemmus.org/post/16011446

Here is the post for the first month 🎉: https://lemmus.org/post/16011446

Here is the post for the first month 🎉: https://lemmus.org/post/16011446