Do you think it is ethical to work for a company that builds drones, weaponry, or supplies parts to the military?
Do you think it is ethical to work for a company that builds drones, weaponry, or supplies parts to the military?
My opinion is threefold:
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It is always ethical to not starve to death. (Caveat: assuming you are not directly harming someone else) If the only job available to you is making supplies for the military, don't beat yourself up. We live in a capitalist hellscape, you need to pay rent, you need to buy food, you need health insurance, you need to be able to have vacations and save for retirement and do fun things from time to time. If you can do anything to mitigate that harm--participate in demonstrations, donate to aid organizations, etc--do that; but if you're not in a situation to be able to do those things, you're not being unethical. You're just doing what you can.
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It is always ethical to do less harm. If your company makes support equipment for military applications--desk chairs, for example, or toilet paper--your job is more ethical than the job making, you know, bombs or bullets or napalm or whatever. A job making things that are not inherently harmful but can be used in the course of causing harm-- well, let's be honest, that's every job.
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A job in military supply is as ethical as the company you work for and the military they sell to. If your company is selling smart bombs to Russia's military, try to get out. But if your company is selling to a military that uses the products of your labor to mount a defense against an invading force, what you're doing might even be helping to reduce death.
But overall, "ethicalness" is not a binary, and it's not the same in every situation.
you need to be able to have vacations and save for retirement and do fun things from time to time
ahem actually people only need to exist and survive until they work themselves to death getting tangled in the gears of my spinning jennys
Very good criterias! I think OP posted a great question, and your philosophy seems to be a very interesting merge of a virtue-based approach (that A/B is always good/bad) and an utilitarian one. I like it at a lot :)
Pretty sure its just moral relativism.
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If the choice is starve or work for this company, then yes its ethical.
If your skills and experience can transfer to other companies and jobs, then no its not ethical IMO.
If the choice is to starve or work for this company, then it's pragmatic to work there. No, it's not ethical. That being said, not everyone is in the fortunate position where they can let their ethics decide where they work, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
How far do you take it?
Work in food supply that feeds the people who make end weapons?
Working in that industry you're creating food. It's purpose is to nourish people. Working in an industry that makes weapons to harm, and kill is intrinsically different.
Yeah most engineers in defense work aren’t starved for jobs, but in fact are paid the most by military contractors. It’s like Snowden working for Booz Allen Hamilton, government contractors pay talented people a ton to advance their goals and keep their mouth shut. But they could make less working somewhere else
Sure. Every country has a right to defend itself. Most of the time it isn't the tool that isn't moral but how it is put to use.
Is it ethical to give tools to a country you don't trust to use them responsibly?
I don't think it is inherently unethical to work for a defense supplier, but it obviously depends on the country it is supplying. We in the West certainly need a strong defense industry. China and Russia both have publicly declared their intention to conquer other countries. Just ask Ukraine or Taiwan. Or Europe. Europe can't properly support Ukraine because its defense industry is so fragmented, politicized and atrophied.
We in the West certainly need a strong defense industry. China and Russia both have publicly declared their intention to conquer other countries. Just ask Ukraine or Taiwan.
But just don't ask Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq, Lybia, Panama, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen... am I right?
We in the West certainly need a strong defense industry.
But our defense industry sells arms to more or less anyone willing to pay. Most types of arms have basically become commodities, and the net effect of anyone producing more is that arms become cheaper and more accessible worldwide.
I'm no expert on arms control, but I'm pretty sure the industry in the West can only sell to approved countries. But, yes, I take your point that there is always some form of arms race happening in the world and keeping the arms industry going means having to sell more arms, which will be used to kill people at some point. Unfortunately, we still need a defense industry.
Good point.
I'd think that the work these folks in Ukraine are doing would be an example of ethical (and, my God, it must be fulfilling) defense work.
I feel like this really depends on your options. Ethics are less crucial when your options are lesser as well.
If you're choosing between equally paying jobs in military contracting vs saving lives? Pretty easy choice to me. If you're choosing between doing manual labor for a military supplier vs your family being on the street? Also a pretty easy choice.
I work for an aerospace and defense contractor. The vast majority of my activities over the years has been for non-military space flight, but not all of it, I've also worked on torpedos, missile defense, and other military systems.
When I started working for the company, it was on the space shuttle project, so the military part didn't even occur to me (though the shuttle did place some military payloads). When I was first asked to support the military side, I found myself doing some soul searching, and I decided the main question I had to ask myself was, "Should the United States have weapons or a military?" I pretty quickly decided the answer was yes.
Does that mean I agree with every military action the government has taken? No, far from it. But there have also been many I do agree with, and I for sure believe the country needs a strong military.
So yes, I believe it's ethical.
No.
i mean, i probably wouldn't resent you for mopping the floors at BAE. but if you actually design or build the missiles, yes, that is unethical
a lot of people are using the example of ukraine to say 'sometimes the missiles are for the greater good', and while i would agree with that specific example, you don't have control over where your missiles go. russian tank, yemeni refugee, etc
i also think saying 'the parts will be made anyway' is kind of a dodge, the question isn't whether the parts will be made, it's whether you will make them
Fuck no.
As a rule of thumb... no.
Definitely not if you have the opportunity to work somewhere else.
I don't really think you need to worry about inanimate objects seeing as they haven't been made for good or evil specifically. On the other hand, if you write software that decides who lives or dies, you have a gigantic responsibility and the blood of any accident is on your hands
No. I left the military because I couldn't morally justify staying in.
It's a complex question, but I think the short answer is it depends on if your country has safeguards in place to control where that manufactured equipment goes. A few months ago I watched a video interview of a US State Department official who publicly resigned because he felt those safeguards (specifically laws of war and laws of proportionality) had been bypassed during recent arms transfer to Israel. I could see someone quitting their military manufacturing or engineering jobs for the same reasons. Whether or not you agree with how your nation's arms are being used is a matter of personal ethics and involves things like political accountability.
I know I want my country to have self-defense capabilities, and that means having a well-supplied military. Thus I support at least some arms manufacturing. I very much dislike the idea of it being entangled with major economic factors because I don't want war to make economic sense - i.e. "drive the industry". My guess is a lot of people worldwide would like to see less arms-for-profit trading because it makes military industrialists rich at the expense of weapons spreading around the world and often causing harm to innocent people.
do you feel what the united states spends on its military is proportionate to its direct defense requirement?
i think were up to 950b/year in 'danger'
Honestly, I'm not wise/educated enough to give a certain answer. I sure feel like there's a lot more spending being done than is probably required, and the DoD has failed multiple audits for 6 years now. So there's cause for concern or at least accountability about where the US taxpayer's money is ending up. The DoD budget could buy a lot of infrastructure, teachers, healthcare, debt relief, etc. so it's not unreasonable for citizens to want to know what they're gaining in exchange for giving those things up.
On the other hand, I live in Canada and the hard truth is we rely on the USA for a lot of our military needs. I know if Putin decides Ukraine isn't enough and he starts eyeing Canadian land (say in the Arctic), then I'm going to want to know NATO can win. My final take is probably that US military spending could be moderated, but cuts should be made carefully with justification.
nope, not if you care about human beings. the united states especially is under no threat requiring a near trillion dollar a year 'defense'
the military-industrial complex is a jobs-welfare program, but none of them will admit they are welfare recipients.
many people can overlook their particular part as 'well, my role isnt making a bullet that will go through a human, so what i do for this company is ok'
im not that delusional.
many people can overlook their particular part
People are amazingly good at this.
"I just make the munitions, I don't use them".
"I just load the munitions, I don't actually fire the weapon".
"I just fire the weapon, I didn't put my target into the warzone".
"If I wasn't, someone else would anyway".
Probably fine if you are the janitor. If you are the engineer in charge of maximising "effectiveness" of weaponry well....
No.
I think this question boils down to this: Do your actions have a net positive or a net negative affect on the world? Does working at this company in some way offset the harm that the company is doing downstream? In this case I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable way in which this might be the case. Paying you and your family to have stuff doesn't offset causing actual death and physical harm.
I mean ... not saying I necessarily agree, but isn't the logical counter argument being defense and deterrence?
I use to be much much more ideologically against arms production, but honestly, seeing what's happening in Ukraine has given me some pause and caused me to reflect a lot. When a tyrant like Putin can amass a huge amount of weaponry and just decide to invade and impose a totalitarian dictatorship on a neighbouring country, and the only thing that has stopped him is a mass amount of better weaponry, it muddies the moral waters a bit.
This is true, but on a personal level I have no idea how to do the calculus for, "My work is killing people, but it would have been worse if it hadn't." I think the show "The Good Place" got it right and it is just too interconnected and complicated to actually derive an answer as to whether an action is net negative or positive. That said, if I had to place money on a given action being negative, working for an arms manufacturer would be one I'd be fairly comfortable betting on.
Some military devices help prevent conflict and minimize its harm. A lot of modern warfare is increasing situational awareness. For example, radar, night vision, surveillance, reconnaissance, electronic warfare, tactical communications, and signals intelligence. Of course, these technologies can be used in a way that harms as well. But the alternative is a blind slugfest that probably harms a lot more civilians and friendly fire.
Ah yes. Bigger, better, more deadly weapons will definitely help reduce deaths.
It's all just lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers.
I don’t think it’s ethical. But if it’s take that job or lose my house? I’ll take the job until I can find something better.
No. But people have different ideas of what's ethical and what's not.
If you ask in a pro military or Conservative space you'll probably be told "yes".
You'll have to decide for yourself whether you could live with working for such a company. Everyone needs to eat and if that's your best choice for work then it may not be such an easy choice.
I don't think so, mostly because those companies are some of the worst manipulators of our democracy.
In terms of actually helping to manufacture weapons, there are necessary and ethical uses for those weapons, and you as an individual cannot choose where they go. Not an issue IMO.
I started in defense, but I would now after 15+ years not do any work in defense or gambling or trading. It was a good experience for me though, taught me a lot, but I wouldn't do it again now.
I've just received an offer from a large company in the gambling industry. I am somewhat conflicted about taking it, on one hand I feel adults should be allowed to decide to waste some money at a casino and I have no issue with gambling as an activity. But, while I don't feel gambling is inherently bad, I am aware that the companies in the industry are incredibly predatory and invest significant amounts of resources into making their products and services as addictive as possible.
My current job is basically just helping further the CCP's global expansion so I feel gambling is somewhat better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Im hoping for another offer from a company who do software for the insurance industry, that would be first prize...
Would there be any aspect of defense you would consider? For example another comment mentioned situational awareness, etc. Basically weapons systems which might STOP them from being used on civilians?
No, I blacklisted the whole industry and will not take any job there.
- The Good Place
If it's a choice then no I don't think it's ethical. If it's the only job you can get and you absolutely need it to survive or you're facing threat of war from another country that's a harder issue.
But assuming you aren't forced to do it and it's entirely your choice in time of peace: choosing to make weapons of war isn't very ethical IMO. That's a pretty huge assumption, though. Real life is rarely so simple.
The problem I have with working for military contractors is you never know wtf the government is going to do with them. When Trump was elected dude wanted to nuke a hurricane. Weapons in the wrong hands is very dangerous and is the biggest concern I have. Which is also kind of why I want a meritocracy system to stop stupid shit from happening.
Anyways, I diverge. If you had no other choice than to work for a company that kills people then maybe? Lots of those guys also do space exploration or something as well so I'm sure you could find something without making weapons.
Absolutely not.
Yes Ukraine is an example of a good use for a defense industry but US history is littered with tragedies, massacres and massive amounts of suffering from all the other bad things having a defense industry does.
Obviously not, as you might have heard, those things are used to kill people.
Of course not
It of course depends on the context and choice of ethics framework. If the decision is personal I like to use the shorthand: If you have the privilege to choose, then choose to build the type of future you want to live in.
Yes. Defense is important. Pacifism is unworkable in today's geopolitical sphere. Weapons create peace.
If you're worried about ethics, it's going to be very difficult finding a job that will make you a living that is ethical.
I mean... you can upstream everything. I work for a place that sells outdoor sports gear. Pretty benign unless you do a deep dive into supply chains and the like.
For the record, I did work at a place the built parts for cruise missiles. It sucked. I quit
No - it's not ethical.
Very little evil is actually a direct result of evil people doing evil things. The vast majority of it comes to be through ordinary people doing banal things - things that, like building weapons, are questionable at best, but that they excuse because it's "out of my control."
The thing is that it's not out of their control. Yes - if one individual makes the decision to not take part, that's not going to have much of an effect, but if every person who feels the same way makes that same choice, that absolutely WILL have an effect.
And there's only one way to make it so that every person who feels the same way makes that choice, and that's for each one of them, individually, to look past that "it's out of my control" bullshit excuse and go ahead and do it.
Everything on any significant scale is out of individual control. Individuals just possess a very limited amount of control over affairs on a national, much less global, scale. But that's really entirely beside the point. The point is how you choose to exercise the small amount of control you have. Will you use it for good, or for evil?
I think the argument is kinda weak, because from my decision to do something (like construct a weapon) the other workers at the factories don't change their opinion. For these kinds of events to happen, there must either already be a huge grudge in the workforce, so that you're the "tipping point", or you have to be as charismatic as a reborn Jesus and convince everyone to follow you. Both of these events seem implausible here. Thus, your decision to make or not make a weapon will not influence others, and the outcome won't be significant.
However, I'd love to have your input on it. I think the question if for the judgment of an action it is important that it is significant (or not) is a fundamentally important one, so I'd really appreciate your response here :)
the other workers at the factories don’t change their opinion.
And some number of those workers have the exact same opinion that you do - they're opposed, but they don't think they can make a difference.
And if all of you stopped waiting around for some charismatic leader to tell you what to do and just went ahead and made the choice you prefer, you would make a difference.
This is something I wrestle with sometimes as an engineering student and I think it does vary from country to country. You’ve got to ask yourself how the world would be different without those companies - whether other less friendly countries would come to prominence and whether the removal of the such a deterrence would make wars more common. But on the other hand, you should think about how those weapons are used and whether it’s ‘right’ like the defence of Ukraine, or more objectionable like some of the more polarising conflicts around the world. It’s a very difficult question but personally I don’t think I would work for a weapons company coz I don’t know how I’d feel about making something that is designed to kill people
It's fine. The designers of a weapon aren't responsible for how its used.
Do you live in the united states or any of its allies? If yes, then no, it is not ethical.
So if you're Russian, sure, go for it!
What a very intelligent take.
Or Chinese, yes lol
Collectively, no. Personally, yes. People deserve to make a living.
It's ethical, the parts will be made whether you work that job or not, and you're only responsible for the actions of the military to the extent that you're able to change them.
Since none of your reasonable options will make an impact on the production or use of those items, it's not a ethical issue for you to work there.
What matters much more is your ability to provide for yourself and those around you.
no and ive always refused to do it but actually im fucked now so maybe i would
Hell no
From my perspective, definitely if for Ukraine. I think it depends on what you can reasonably infer the weapons will be used for. If that use lines up with your beliefs, go for it.
YouTube has taught me that weapons are only used against menacing watermelons and disturbed canisters, in your backyard.
/s
Yes.
Pacifism is a moronic stance as a rule, born out of coddled overprivileged upbringings. War and weaponry have been a cornerstone of humanity since the first time a guy brained another guy with a rock.
Not building weapons simply means you'll have fewer, nobody else will do you the courtesy of not attacking you because you were nice and didn't proliferate.
There's a reason the most peaceful country on earth, Switzerland, has most adults as trained members of the reserves, and everyone has access to state mandated weapons of war either in their homes or their local armouries.
By asking the question, you've already decided.
Nothing is real, everything is permitted.
yes
Why shouldn't you?
Yes it is. You are not the one ordering purchasing or using those.
You boycott by not buying Nestlé not by not working in it.
What?! You can come up with marketing campaigns to misguide and deceive the public, also makes your livelihood depends on it. But as long as you are not buying, then you are fine?!
The entire nestle company, from marketing, to research, to engineer, to accounting, are hired for one singular purpose: making people buy their products. people working in nestle are THE driving force for others to buy nestle product.
I understand life is complex and sometimes people have no choice, but that doesn't make bad choice less bad, and unethical choice ethical. I wouldn't judge people just because they work in nestle; but I would not work for nestle if I can.
If it was to like the Japanese self defense force? Sure.
If it's to the US and going towards bombing civilians all across the world? Hell no.Depends on the country.
Who would win: one American who thinks about ethics or 5 hungry Chinese who don't even know the word "ethics"?