Who's working on a "smaller Rust"?
Who's working on a "smaller Rust"?
Almost five years ago, Saoirse "boats" wrote "Notes on a smaller Rust", and a year after that, revisited the idea.
The basic idea is a language that is highly inspired by Rust but doesn't have the strict constraint of being a "systems" language in the vein of C and C++; in particular, it can have a nontrivial (or "thick") runtime and doesn't need to limit itself to "zero-cost" abstractions.
What languages are being designed that fit this description? I've seen a few scripting languages written in Rust on GitHub, but none of them have been very active. I also recently learned about Hylo, which does have some ideas that I think are promising, but it seems too syntactically alien to really be a "smaller Rust."
Edit to add: I think Graydon Hoare's post about language design choices he would have preferred for Rust also sheds some light on the kind of things a hypothetical "Rust-like but not Rust" language could do differently: https://graydon2.dreamwidth.org/307291.html
I didn't love that article - Rust isn't strictly a systems language. It's general purpose, and a lot of the mechanics are very useful for general programs.
I feel like you may have missed the point, then? Or at least interpreted the article very differently? Rust isn't "strictly" a systems language, but neither is C or C++; people use them for application development all the time. But all three languages have very specific limitations (most obviously, that adding a garbage collector would be an unwelcome change) imposed by the need to fulfill the "systems" niche.
Compare Golang: it can't replace C++ for every use-case, because it has a garbage collector, and because you need cgo to use FFI. But it's otherwise a very flexible language that can be used for most types of software.
What I would like to see is something that shares these advantages with Go:
- quick to build
- easier to teach & learn than Rust
- easier to quickly prototype with than Rust (though of course it's debatable how well Go does at this one)
...but I don't like the actual language design of Go, and I think it's possible to design a language that's more Rusty but still simpler than actual Rust.
For instance, error handling in Rust is both more ergonomic and more rigorous than in Go. That's huge! A language like Go but with sum types,
Result, and the question-mark operator would be leaps and bounds nicer than Go itself.To be clear, I don't imagine that a "smaller Rust" would replace Rust. But I also don't think we've reached optimal language design when the language I'd pick to write an OS is also the language I'd pick to write a small CLI app.
The designers of Go actually discussed civilised error handling (like Rust and others), but in order to make it useful they'd have to include other features like ADTs and something like an
Eithermonad (Result type), which they felt would make Go too difficult to learn for the developers they envisioned Go to be used by.One of the most important reasons for the popularity of Go is exactly that it is extremely limited, and can be picked up by any developer in a few hours. It takes no time to learn because there is nothing there that would need to be learned. This isn't a limitation, it's a feature (opinion of Go designers, not mine).
The key point here is our programmers are Googlers, they’re not researchers. They’re typically, fairly young, fresh out of school, probably learned Java, maybe learned C or C++, probably learned Python. They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language but we want to use them to build good software. So, the language that we give them has to be easy for them to understand and easy to adopt.
- Rob Pike
Rust is a groundbreaking language, but it's not without tradeoffs. There are loads of things it makes extremely difficult compared to slightly higher level languages.
I used it happily for years, but I wouldn't recommend it for any project that didn't explicitly need the low-level performance optimisation.
Extremely hard disagree on the last statement. It certainly has tradeoffs, but they are almost all very valuable to many general applications which don't need performance at all. I've been using it professionally for a very long time now and migrated multiple companies from JS, Python, Java, and C# to Rust and it brought huge advantages.
Why would you want that? What is wrong with python if you want an interpreted language with garbage collection? By contrast what is wrong with rust + a lot of crates (or C++/Ada/...) if you want a compiled language?
Zero cost abstractions are great because speed is very important for complex problems. Little things here and there make for modern computers that feel slower than my old 8 bit atari when trying to get work done.
There is a huge and valuable possibility space between python and Rust. We know this because it is already occupied by many extremely successful languages (Java, C#, Swift, etc).
The value of a language that sits between C# and Rust also seems pretty obvious at this point; a language that gives you Rust's memory management tools for optimisation, but doesn't force you to use them for all of your code.
Coming from some one who used 4 different languages (C#, C++, Python, and G'MIC), I just feel more comfortable when there's a explicit end blocks, which is why I don't like Python. Of all of those languages, only Python does not make that explicit end block which is off-putting in my opinion, and there isn't any other options with the similar role to Python.
Ruby often comes up as a python alternative. There are a lot of other lesser known choices - but any of them will still be more popular (at least at first) than something you come up with and thus any of the will give more community support.
Copying what I wrote in another comment:
What I would like to see is something that shares these advantages with Go:
- quick to build
- easier to teach & learn than Rust
- easier to quickly prototype with than Rust (though of course it's debatable how well Go does at this one)
...but I don't like the actual language design of Go, and I think it's possible to design a language that's more Rusty but still simpler than actual Rust.
For instance, error handling in Rust is both more ergonomic and more rigorous than in Go. That's huge! A language like Go but with sum types,
Result, and the question-mark operator would be leaps and bounds nicer than Go itself.To be clear, I don't imagine that a "smaller Rust" would replace Rust. But I also don't think we've reached optimal language design when the language I'd pick to write an OS is also the language I'd pick to write a small CLI app.
Learning a programming language is not hard. there are thousands of choices. Before you ask for another one, first please check that there isn't already one that meets your needs. Fragmentation of languages is not useful in general. It is rare to have an idea that hasn't been tried before, so find someone who already has done that idea.
You mean a interpretative language with similar role to Python, but more like Rust/C++ style? I actually want that so that I can ditch Python even if I learned it and use this instead.
Not necessarily interpreted, but possibly. I think a more likely path is something like Go that's compiled but still has a garbage collector.
I think inko is close to matching this description.
The biggest difference I see is allowing multiple mutable borrows, which would make a lot of things easier, but aside from that it sounds like it would have most of the same usability problems as Rust.
I'm also a bit put off when I see LLVM advertised as the primary compiler back-end these days. Pretty much guarantees slow builds.
I'll check it out; thanks!
I'm not joking. If you want something that's very similar to Rust, but doesn't have the restriction of being a systems language, then Haskell might be the right thing for you. Unlike Rust, Haskell is Pure Functional though, so it forces you to have an even cleaner architecture.
If Pure Functional isn't your beer, then you could also check out the language that inspired Rust: ML. If I remember correctly, Rust was started as "something similar to ML, but suitable for systems programming". So, it only feels natural to take an ML dialect if you want "something similar to Rust, but without the restriction of it being suitable for systems programming".
A popular ML dialect would for instance be F#, which is built on top of the .Net runtime and is therefore compatible with C# and the likes. On the other hand, in order to make it compatible with C# and the likes, there are some weird compromises in F#...
Or, if you (like me) dislike the idea of having a Garbage Collector, you could go for Lean4. That's what I'm learning currently, and it feels a bit like a bastard child of Haskell and ML.
have an even cleaner architecture
Although I'm fully in camp functional, I doubt that. There are problems that are inherently stateful and rely on mutability. Modelling that in Haskell often results in unnecessary abstractions. I think Rust hits a sweet spot here (when you're that experienced to write idiomatic Rust, whatever that exactly is). Also being lazy by default has its own (performance) implications, strict + lazy iterators (like Rust) is a good default IMO.
Im surprised you didn't mention OCaml or Elm
I do want to learn Haskell some day, but it seems like it has a whole different set of reasons why it's tricky to learn; and I hear enough about the more complex features (e.g. arrow notation) having compiler bugs that I think it really doesn't sound like a "smaller" or "simpler" language than Rust.
That said, yeah, it definitely meets the criteria of having strong typing, a functional style, a garbage collector, and pretty good performance.
I think I saw something called 'Rune' that might fit the criteria pretty well. I didn't dig really deep.
If you want a high-level, convenient Rust, it's already there: It's Rust with liberal use of
Arcand.clone()andBoxand so on. If you want things to be convenient instead of efficient, Rust already has everything you need.If you think that's convenient, then I fear you may never have experienced a convenient language.
What is a convenient language exactly?
Although I think the arguments are not exactly pro-Rust (they already show complexity with something like
Box).Sure hacking something quickly together with python is quite a bit faster/easier/less mental overhead.
But long-term and IDE experience IMO Rust is the most convenient language (mind you I programmed in ~10-20 languages, and the whole DX is best with Rust IMO (cargo, rust-analyzer etc.)), as it forces you to write a clean architecture and the strong type system keeps it maintainable. While refactoring can feel cumbersome, I almost always had a clean and working/correct (often without tests) code afterwards (when all the compiler errors are fixed).
That said Rust is of course not perfect, all the strong-typing, zero-cost (async is certainly not something I would recommend beginners) systems-programming features make it complex at times (and the type-system can get in the way at times, e.g. trait-object-safety, or not "simple" higher-kinded types). So when that is annoying and control over the exact memory is not that important, something like OCAML or Haskell may be better.
I guess we're coming at this with different opinions on what is convenient. Python is extremely easy and quick to write - but then writing more code for tests than the actual program itself because the compiler catches next to nothing and still dealing with the occasional runtime error is highly inconvenient to me. I look at the "ease of use" - or painlessness if you will - of a programming language over the whole lifecycle of the program, not just initially writing it.
Initial development is like 2% of the total effort over the whole lifecycle of a program, at most. The vast majority of time is refactoring, troubleshooting, changing, testing, building, deploying, monitoring.... and so on. With Rusts strong type system, I will probably spend 30% more time developing than with an easier language like Python/Go/Kotlin, but I will save 300% of time debugging, troubleshooting, deploying. Moreover, writing code is something I enjoy, while debugging is something I'd rather avoid. Any language that enables me to spend less time teoubleshooting runtime errors and debugging edge cases is a desirable language for me.
What would you consider a convenient language, and why?
can have a nontrivial (or “thick”) runtime and doesn’t need to limit itself to “zero-cost” abstractions.
Wouldn't that be a bigger rust rather than a smaller one?
Not an area I'm particularly interested in, given that I do embedded and hard realtime development. Rust is the best language for that now, I just which allocations were fallible as well. And storage/allocator API was stabilised.
Not unless you consider Go a "bigger" language than Rust. The blog post means "smaller" in terms of what the user has to learn and think about, rather than smaller in implementation size or resulting binary.
I would indeed consider Go a bigger language, because I do indeed think in terms of the size of the runtime.
But your way of defining it also makes sense. Though in those terms I have no idea if Go is smaller or not (as I don't know Go).
But Rust is still a small language by this definition, compared to for example C++ (which my day job still involves to a large extent). It is also much smaller than Python (much smaller standard library to learn). Definitely smaller than Haskell. Smaller than C I would argue (since there are leas footguns to keep in mind), though C has a smaller standard library to learn.
What other languages do I know... Erlang, hm again the standard library is pretty big, so rust is smaller or similar size I would argue. Shell script? Well arguably all the Unix commands are the standard library, so that would make shell script pretty big.
So yeah, rust is still a pretty small language compared to all other languages I know. Unsafe rust probably isn't, but I have yet to need to write any (except one line to work around AsRawFd vs AsFd mismatch between two libraries).