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Vegan @lemmy.ml higgsbi @beehaw.org

What is the ethical backing behind your vegan beliefs?

For You

One of the more interesting topic I discuss with people is why exactly they formed their vegan belief system. Some point out that they saw a documentary of Youtube video showing the horrors of animal agriculture, but that just points to our gut reaction, not necessarily the logical backing making us change our lifestyles. With that being said, where do you personally derive your beliefs from? Do you hardline certain deontological sticking points like exploitation? Do you just care about the relative net impact on creatures and their ability to thrive? Or is it something else entirely?

Personal Viewpoint

Personally, I draw my entire ethical world view on broad utilitarian viewpoints. So if a chicken were to suffer because of something I did, I must have done something wrong. Equally, if a chicken were to thrive because of something I did, I did something good. However, I do not think about the exploitation nor commodification of that chicken, because those are anthropomorphic ideas that they likely do not care about. Sure, commodification and exploitation are usually wrong because they excuse people's actions, but, it seems to me that there are some niche cases where these qualities, which we often find as bad, are in fact morally neutral.

I think I realized that after seeing a video of someone who saved several hens from factory farms who were still producing eggs, and continued to use the eggs for their personal usage (feeding carnivorous animals and supplementing their own diet so far as the chicken did not have any physical stressors). I tried to look at the situation objectively to find some issue with the chicken being malnourished, abused, or made to do something they didn't like. But alas, the hens involved had no medical issues, were able to thrive in a safe and comfortable environment, and were nutritionally supplemented to ensure their well being (i.e., no nutritional deficiencies). Plus, carnivorous animals got a meal so less animals as a whole were harmed.

The humans involved in the prior example did not need to consume the chickens eggs, but doing so posed no ethical issue, so for me, it was ethically neutral - a non issue.

Other Example

If you still want to read, here's another example of my views. I personally avoid wool as I know where it comes from and the suffering that must be inflicted in our system. However, I acknowledge that there are ways in which wool can be a viable fabric while still allowing for thriving lives for sheep.

First, I think about a normal house dog. They usually hate getting a hair cut when they're younger because they are scared of the razor. After you get a razor with a cooling blade mechanism and get them exposed to it, they learn to not be afraid of it and instead enjoy the experience since the hair cut doesn't actually provide any physical pain. For that, I feel no moral qualms with giving them a hair cut because they seems to enjoy or be unbothered by it. If I put in the effort to utilize the hair I cut off in a meaningful way, it'd be fine to do. Especially because I just throw it away otherwise.

Equally, a sheep "wool" is simply their hair. Some breeds have the genetics to grow more or less, but growing it and having it removed do not have to bring about harm - we just do it because we value cheap goods year round far more than their livelyhoods so we adopt cruel standards. If I were to some day have some sort of homestead, where I raised sheep from their adolescence all the way to their death of natural causes, and continued to give to shave their wool, I see not problem with doing so. Given that they are well fed, not hurt in the process, and were given access to natural pastures that they can use to thrive. In fact, I'd argue that is a good thing to do as I've taken care of them their entire life (protection from normal predators, warm home, access to food, etc) without harming them in the process.

TL;DR exploitation and commodification are usually bad, but I find the reason for them being bad to be the harm (direct and indirect), not just the fact that they are exploited.

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28 comments

  • I need to do more reading and thinking on this topic tbh. I used to have a utilitarian/reduction of suffering approach, but utilitarianism, if you really put it to the test, has some weird implications (Peter Singer, The Experience Machine, the ones who walk away from omelas, etc), so I'm exploring a deontological approach, based mainly on Kant, with some minor tweaks.

    Here's my current draft:

    Act such that you treat sentient beings always as an end and never as a mere means.

    The basic idea is that animals are beings with unique wants, needs, desires, and fears, so its wrong to disregard those by treating them as a mere means to an end.

    I like this approach because it solves some problems with suffering based moralities (if I kill someone with no pain but I get joy, is that wrong?) And it also allows for mutually beneficial relationships with animals. For example, if I keep a companion animal, while respecting them as an individual, that's okay.

    It also, I think, is useful when talking about, say, wool. Technically, shearing wool from sheep reduces the suffering of sheep, but the wool industry treats the animals as a mere means to their wool, which is wrong (and that's reflected in the way sheep are treated on those farms).

    I do admit that it has some problems that need to be resolved. First, its difficult for me to argue that sentience is something intrinsically valuable. The difference between using someone as a means and an end simultaneously is also fairly gray. For example, someone could argue that killing animals isn't using them as a mere means as long as you "respect the animal" and use them for food. Which obviously I don't condone.

    I think I need to read Korsgaard and a few other philosophers lol.

  • If I have to say what most convinced me in my head canon/ethics, it would be the one thought experiment where if you got to choose what the world would be like but you couldn't choose who you would be in the world, what would you want that world to be like?

    And I would choose a vegan world every time. So I practice what I want the world to be.

    To me, I am the cow, I am the pig, I am me. We are all that blind space traveler. None of us got to choose what body we ended up in.

  • There are a number of different branches I can go on here, but I'll just post high level thoughts to start.

    The issue with trying to define these lines in a capitalist society is they'll always be blown past when any leeway is given. If you say "eggs can be harvested ethically", what you'll end up with necessarily is the egg industry we have today, where we macerate 10s of millions of baby male chicks a day because they're not profitable.

    If it's done outside of a capitalist system, then you still have to contend with the idea that permitting these types of exploitation will mean that the people who want the things (eggs/wool/etc.) will do the exploitation on the grounds that they want those products, not because they want to take care of these animals and they have some byproduct you happen to use. The "caretakers" will be focused on their productive output instead of caring for them as pets. This is bad.

    More abstractly, utilitarianism has some issues. Approaching morality as a simple math equation can lead to justifying atrocities much easier. When you can just say "the pleasure I get from this is more good than the pain you get is bad", then you can justify exploitation from a utilitarian perspective. If you take a step back though, it should be obvious that the idea of justifying suffering with pleasure is horrendous, yet this is the core calculus of utilitarianism.

    A focus on rights and their violations leads to a moral view that doesn't allow you to use your own pleasure, or pleasure more generally, to justify inflicting harm. It's a better system for the oppressed, while utilitarianism is better for the oppressors.

    • I don't agree that utilitarianism is pro-oppression by nature, especially when reasonable consideration is applied. As an example, you present the transition from exploitative practices (eggs/wool/etc) without harm to the same practices with harm. This being allowed with the justification that my pleasure is worth more than their pain (an argument you attribute to the utilitarian camp). However, that would be defined as egoism rather than the utilitarianism. Utilitarians would posit all beings capable of suffering or pleasure ought to be given adequate consideration for their relative abilities.

      I think many rule based utilitarians, myself included, would find a reasonable course of action in our future, even with capitalism being the main force of economic action. For example, the pleasure one receives for consuming an egg is small, while the suffering in current industry practices is great. This would result in a severely bad hedonistic calculus from utilitarians, even if the egoists would love it.

      I would argue that the deontological argument of "animals have innate rights" is considered in the utilitarian approach as well, even if it is presented differently. The argument from my point of view is that most animals, besides ourselves, clearly have the basic ability to thrive and suffer. That ability needs to be considered in our calculations. This, I would say, is the core tenant of utilitarianism. All who can suffer, ought not to have to suffer. All who can thrive, ought to be able to thrive. All who can provide these qualities to others, ought to do so to the best of their abilities.

      Similarly, and more of a tangent on my personal views: I sit firmly in the negative utilitarian camp. I acknowledge that more good is better than neutrality, but clearly the removal of suffering needs to be the primary impetus for action. So I am extremely rarely in agreement with the idea that “the pleasure I get from this is more good than the pain you get is bad.” As in that, pleasure, especially smaller pleasures, are weighted more than suffering.

      • A utilitarian and an egoist can often align on what is "just" so long as the pleasure of some action outweighs the pain it inflicts. Of course there's no actual way to measure X pleasure or Y pain, but people will make claims to how much pain/pleasure they get in some scenario and use it as justification for whatever they want.

        We'd agree that the pleasure of egg consumption is small, but I know many people who will say things like "I can't give up cheese" or "I can't give up eggs". They'll go as far to say the only pleasure they get out of life is eating food, and that no amount of suffering could outweigh the raw pleasure they get in a utilitarian calculation.

        Since there's no proper test we can do to say "no you're only getting 4 units of pleasure but you're inflicting 80 units of suffering for that egg", all we can go on is people's own judgement about their own pleasure, and their guesses about the pain they inflict. It's a very ad-hoc and non-principled approach, that anyone can use to justify anything so long as they say they've hit some required pleasure threshold.

        This is all an argument against utilitarianism, not negative utilitarianism specifically, which does alleviate some of these issues. You'll still come up against moral issues that deontological ethics can solve but negative utilitarianism cannot (e.g why is it unethical to kill a person who has no connections and whose death will not produce any negative utility in the world). A rule utilitarian would say yes this is fine ethically, but the rule should be that killing is unethical because that'll produce the most positive utility/least negative utility. This would allow people to justify isolated murders so long as it's not setup as a rule for society that murder is okay, and that the murders produced no negative utility (e.g painless killing methods etc.).

        As for more practical considerations in regards to animals, I'll allude back to my point about being unable to actually quantify pleasure/pain units. Someone right now might say that a "family farm" of chickens is ethical because the positive utility outweighs the negative utility of the chickens, unaware of the kinds of pain the chickens go through or the maceration of the baby males required to allow the females to survive in a profitable environment. But you might be able to find a more "ethical" form of exploitation that you might find okay that still produces negative utility that you just don't recognize as such.

        The safe way to go about the world is to recognize the rights of these animals the same way we recognize the rights of humans. Whether you want to call them natural rights or human-constructs, it doesn't matter. These animals shouldn't be exploited for their byproducts even if we can't find any negative utility being inflicted. Life is always going to have some kind of suffering in it, so veganism usually implies an antinatalist stance for non-human animals. As a negative utilitarian yourself, you should recognize that we don't have the right to birth animals as they might experience negative utility as a result of our exploitation, even if we try our best to mitigate it.

  • My current stand is reduce the suffering in the world as much as possible. You can't be perfect.

    I have an interesting question. My girlfriend is a vet and she has a vet pharmacy. She has saved a lot of animals and in the same time she sells animal food and most of it is made from meat.

    Without selling animal food the pharmacy will not exist since it's the most of the income and without the pharmacy she will not be able to save animals.

    Is selling meat in this case justified, in your point of view?

  • Thanks for writing this up. I believe that intention also matters. Although there’s no difference in terms of the contribution towards suffering, I would treat myself and others differently between accidentally eating non-vegan food vs willingly eating the same food.

    I also think it’s important to consider the use of animal products in society. In your wool example, do you believe you have a responsibility to instead donate the wool to avoid others from purchasing wool that does lead to harm? As long as non-vegan societies exist, is it possible for the use of any animal product to be ethical?

    Practically, in the real world, I find it easier to draw the line at avoiding the use of all animal products. Even if there may exist animal products that are ethical to use, I find it easier to adhere to the simpler principal of total avoidance. I also think total avoidance helps contribute towards activism. Being seen using animal products, however they were obtained, may enables other to legitimize their own use of animal products.

    • I'm not sure how this will fly here, but I want to offer a different perspective. I was someone who always respected people who made the choice to go vegan but just know myself well enough to know I would never be able to fully give up things like cheese, eggs, or meat. I'm not, like super proud about what that says about me, but it is what it is.

      Since "being vegetarian" and "being vegan" were always presented as binary choices that's kind of where the introspection stopped. I wasn't going to "stop eating meat", and that seemed to be the demand, you know?

      Kurzgesagt's video Why Meat is the Best Worst Thing in the World really turned me around that way of thinking. It makes a strong case that if you can't bring yourself to totally give it up, but have sympathy for the ethical and social arguments against meat, it doesn't have to be binary. It everyone tried to cut down how much meat they eat by 1/3, it has the same impact as 33% of meat eaters going vegan. It's worth doing it part way.

      Every since then I've tried to eat at least one vegetarian meal a day, preferably vegan. I won't lie and say I always make good on it, but I've definitely reduced the amount I consume, and make more of an effort to incorporate things like beyond/impossible meat into recipes that I would have used beef in before, or order a vegetarian meal if the last time I went out I got something with meat. It's not ideal, but it is more than I was doing.

      I think all or nothing messages can push people away who would be willing to take some action, but not fully commit, and maybe be counter productive even if it's cognitively easier to square.

      Just my 2¢

      • As for the hive's (still funny to me) rules, we try to keep the "coddling" to a minimum. I've heard this strategy of activism referred to as baby steps. I'll try to side step that to avoid the rule since your thoughts are very interesting and you put a lot of effort into responding here.

        Activism and Baby Steps

        I think all or nothing messages can push people away who would be willing to take some action, but not fully commit, and maybe be counter productive even if it’s cognitively easier to square.

        Something I remember hearing a while back as a bit of a confrontation was to change the group we are harming in our actions to see if that changes how we see how we act. For example, swap the following two actions.

        A. "I kill 4 animals a week for my food. I can opt not to, but that is not what I am used to and I like this."
B. "I went to the animal shelter and killed 4 dogs for food. I can opt not to, but that is not what I am used to and I like this"

        It seems like an unfair comparison, even one made out to "get" people in some sort of ethical snare, but the situation is virtually the same. Dogs and normally farmed animals have no real difference separating the two and we can opt to not kill either. In fact, dogs can and have been farmed and killed quite recently. Some are vocally upset that people have tried to stop them from doing so as it seems extreme to them for others to stop them.

        Now What?

        All of that being said, I understand what you mean by it being hard to change. We can look at anyone with an addiction to a substance and just tell them to switch, but we as humans are horrible at changing and there are often other factors that hold people back from doing what they ought to do.

        You mention, that you would never be able to give up meat, cheese, etc. But the thing is, you don't really have to. We, as animals, love the taste of umami, acid, salt, sugar, etc. These are just biological phenomena brought forward from our genetics to get us to consume food with vitamins, minerals, and macronutrients we need. But a vegan diet doesn't have to give those up. Vegan foods throughout history have been made from whole foods and are delicious (especially coming from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia).

        Also, modern food science has made cheap, and often reasonably healthy, vegan alternatives to many of the things you are worried about. Just today, I consumed a homemade pizza made with spicy chorizo (made from gardein be'f crumbles) and daiya cheese (not a healthy meal, but you get my point). Hell, there are several restaurants that carry these options on their menu if we're feeling lazy. We can cook scrambled eggs, omelets, or breakfast sandwiches with Just Egg as well. Granted, my family avoids these products and only uses them for special occasions as we opt for more whole food options, but these ones in particular are low in saturated fat and sodium - making them reasonable processed foods to consume regularly, even when compared to their animal counterparts.

        If you ever want some options for your favorite foods, my partner and I love to experiment and try what is best, both in store, at restaurants, and at home. We haven't found anything that cannot be reasonably replaced yet. I also study nutrition and am more than willing to help out with any worries you might have there.

      • Hi, just to let you know that I, too, once thought I could never give up animal products. I used to eat a shit load of meat and cheese almost every day. But then after one Christmas a couple of years ago I stopped (at least with the meat, I became vegan later on).

        At first it was kind of difficult, because I had to come up with new / more / other meals to eat. But after a few weeks I got used to it and looking back, I realize that it was actually very easy - at least much easier than I initially thought. There's so much in the way of replacement products nowadays. Seriously, if I could do it, you can too. It also helps to not think "does this dish taste like the animal product version?" and instead think "is this dish tasty?"

  • I'm answering first and reading your answer and replies after.

    1. It is not necessary to consume animal products to meet or exceed nutritional and energy requirements. They are not necessary to clothe or shelter us.
    2. Consumption of animal products is an inefficient use of land and resources, causing deforestation and food insecurity.
    3. If culturally normalised globally, meeting demand for animal products results in enormous suffering, to humans and animals. CAFOs cause psychological, ecological, and biological damage. Using products they produce (vegetarianism) usually ends up with them still entering in the same suffering and premature death system because of economic incentives.
    4. Animals are sentient and prefer a state of relative wellbeing and satisfaction of natural instincts just like we do. Making excuses to violate animals does not align with principals of nonviolence and compassion for beings.
    5. Altering animals genetically via breeding practices to make them more suitable for our purposes (increasing wool on sheep, increasing meat or egg size on chickens) causes unnecessary suffering.
    6. We are an exceptionally numerous and powerful species whose actions transform the world. We can make choices that lead to flourishing or to horror on massive scales. We can't take an "individualist" approach assuming that our specific way of doing things (such as a quaint family farm) would scale across billions of people.

    I really admire those who sacrificed sensory pleasures to meet these objectives, but in my part of the world I don't even have to. While I sacrificed the specific sensory pleasure of specific foods, for me analogous just as satisfactory replacements exist. It's really not too much different than moving away from a place where you had one favorite restaurant to a place where that restaurant doesn't exist so you pick a new favorite restaurant.

    • Sorry, long post ahead:

      I agree with points 2, 5, and parts of the others. But I disagree on specifics of a few of said points.

      It is not necessary to consume animal products to meet or exceed nutritional and energy requirements. They are not necessary to clothe or shelter us.

      It is true that humans can go without an animals byproducts and survive with ease. However, I will note that in an ideal scenario of no-slaughter and high-welfare laws, wool is a superior alternative to plastic clothing given how wasteful plastic products are. However, this is only relevant for cold parts of the world where normal cotton clothing is inadequate. I myself opt for plastic and second hand wool, but would rather have an option of a sheep in my care which would never encounter any harm if we are to continue to experience cold environments. Additionally, eggs specifically serve as a great means to care for non-human animals that do indeed need animal-based foods. Maybe in the future, lab grown meat will replace the need for this, but currently it seems to be the best option to reduce suffering overall. Finally, just because something is not necessary, does not mean we shouldn't do it. If indeed my hypothetical care for a hen is only positive (nutritionally thriving, warm home, freedom to roam the yard to scavenge and perch, etc), then eating the non-fertilized eggs they produce is a neutral act. As with the example in the original post, if you were to use a dogs hair they let out from shedding as a coat, I would view that as a completely neutral option. Maybe slightly positive since it would be thrown out otherwise.

      Using products they produce (vegetarianism) usually ends up with them still entering in the same suffering and premature death system because of economic incentives.

      Usually, yes. but I do not advocate for this. I advocate for a future of companionship between humans and chickens that features either a commensalistic or mutualistic relationship. One where no one is harmed. Something along the lines of how people treat their dogs/cats now. I believe this is quite achievable with animal welfare laws.

      We can’t take an “individualist” approach assuming that our specific way of doing things (such as a quaint family farm) would scale across billions of people.

      Sure, a quaint farm wouldn't scale across a billion people. But you do not need it to. I am specifically pointing to this being a good relationship, not that all people should have it. Similarly, I advocate for people to grow their own food. However, I understand that mass farming is necessary for plant foods to be grown for a majority of people. If we are to assume that my hypothetical situation features no harm to the chickens while giving them a great life (like I might give for my dog), then I see it as a net good.

      Animals are sentient and prefer a state of relative wellbeing and satisfaction of natural instincts just like we do. Making excuses to violate animals does not align with principals of nonviolence and compassion for beings.

      This is my biggest drop off in views. Non-human animals definitely do prefer a state of well being and do seem to have senses of individualism and other traits we value. However, it is important not to assign anthropomorphic ideas to them. For example, I know my dog loves to go outside and run around. If I were to give him full freedom and access to express his natural instincts, I would just let him outside to roam free. However, I know that I can give him a superior that features living in a warm area with access to food at standard times, frequent treats, and lots of time exercising outside with me or others present. I would view chickens in the same way I view said dog. An animal I ought to take care of while letting them express their instincts to a reasonable extent as to not harm them. So i'd give them a heated barn to protect them from the elements and predatory animals as well as provide nutritional assistance as foraging is not always ideal. During the day, they'd be free to roam the yard and fulfill their wishes.

      I think it's very important to acknowledge how awful living in the wild really is. Obviously, the current treatment of animals is worse, but I wouldn't say we shouldn't live with them as a part of our lives. Just a far better relationship featuring care and never harm.

      I had a similar discussion here, if you're not in a long conversation sorta mood. Nevoic and I talked about the relative merits of rights vs welfare approaches. I think my conclusion after speaking with them is that I still find utilitarian systems of practice to be more reasonable, but I understand and can empathize with the deontologists

      • I choose not to refer to myself or other people with philosophical terms. I prefer to use the words to describe specific arguments. Basically a person can make a deontological argument without referring to themselves as a deontologist. I think the scenarios of life are diverse enough that a person may find one way of reasoning more applicable in a certain realm and another in another. Or you could even want to justify an action with multiple arguments. Sometimes, I make deontological arguments for my social relationships but I don't commonly use them outside. I often find utilitarian arguments useful, but they also have their limitations.

        I didn't enjoy giving up wool when I became a vegan because I was a needlefelter. I also don't think anyone can deny that wool is a material with great properties.

        But in the reality of the world we live in, and specifically for me, my use of wool is potentially tied up with a system of live transport. Typically when animals used for wool reach the end of their lives, they're packed up on ships in a brutal manner and sent to be processed for meat. I'd hate to make a mistake and accidentally support that, either by making an errant purchase or stochastically inducing someone else to buy wool who would likely buy it from that system instead of mutualistic scenarios.

        I don't really have a enough of a problem with someone buying secondhand wool to protest it. There are products that I purchased before becoming vegan that I'm using until the end of their lifespan.

        Personally, I don't necessarily have a problem with mutualistic relationships between animals and humans, such as we see in certain sanctuaries. I'd be willing to evaluate moral decisions in such situations on a case by case basis. But I do think that in today's climate, animal welfare is just a smokescreen for animal exploitation. So many people justify eating meat from CAFOs with the idea that they buy from family farms some percentage of the time. The urgency for me is to stop the massive exploitation than to entertain edge cases, and the way to do that is to advocate veganism.

        As to whether it would be morally neutral for me to eat an egg from a backyard hen in specific scenarios, perhaps it is. I just don't really see why I would, when I don't have any real reason to. I think that feeding eggs from rescued hens to other rescued animals is potentially justifiable, although I would want to learn more and rule out alternatives before I would confidently vote yes that its ok to do it.

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