If many extraterrestrial civilizations were nearby but trying to keep quiet, how would you suggest drawing them out?
If many extraterrestrial civilizations were nearby but trying to keep quiet, how would you suggest drawing them out?
What do you think would finally be their, "Enough, we gotta say something!" situation?
Edit:
Put another way, what might serve as a cosmic icebreaker?
I suppose it depends on why they're being quiet. If other civilizations view each other as competitors for rare resources like worlds that would be inhabitable with out large scale terraforming, then being loud may get your planet targeted. That's the basis for the "Dark Forest" theory. I think that theory is interesting, but it's a bit pessimistic in my opinion. What's way more likely is, if there are other civilizations out there, the odds of them existing during the same time frame that we're here, AND being close enough to receive radio waves in a timely fashion, AND are at a technology level to send and receive those radio waves.... it's all very very very unlikely.
For me, what's way scarier is, it isn't that everyone is being quiet, it's that there isn't any one else out there, and we're one of the first civilizations to develop. If there were other highly advanced civilizations out there, there'd be signs of them, signs of their technology. Shit, I read that large ships moving at close to the speed light would generate detectable gravity waves. But so far, nothing.
The "Dark Forest" hypothesis is riddled with holes, it only works as the premise for a scary science fiction series and not as a real-world Fermi Paradox solution. The main problem with it is that life on Earth has been readily detectable for two billion years and there's no reason a paranoid xenocidal alien species wouldn't want to wipe that out preemptively, so we'd already be long dead if it were actually the case.
I don't see why it's scary to be the first. To the contrary, that means that our descendants will get to colonize the reachable volume of the cosmos without risk of running into a more advanced species that squashes them like bugs (whether deliberately or simply by having already occupied all the useful resources).
I remember a writing prompt that talked about how we're broadcasting all our TV and radio for years then we get a reply that says, "Be quiet, they will hear you."
Oh okay, so this insular civ broke radio silence to transmit something that will definitely be a big deal and recorded in our news and science papers in extreme detail, and they're not worried that when the threat arrives they will trace that signal back to them?
I've never heard a good explanation for how the dark forest develops and stays stable for any length of time.
I agree about the Dark Forest hypothesis. Also the idea that other alien life just knew to be quiet up front is silly, for the same reason we've been blasting radio waves into the universe the moment we figured out how.
Nah, us being first is scary to me in the sense if life is nearly impossible to form, and we're all alone, that means we can search planet after planet, after planet and only find dead lifeless environments. That's not nearly as fun of a thought as the universe being full of life, and all the amazing discoveries we'd make exploring. That's all I meant.
For me, what’s way scarier is, it isn’t that everyone is being quiet, it’s that there isn’t any one else out there, and we’re one of the first civilizations to develop.
Why would you find that scary?
Is it because of the 'great filter' stuff, that there must therefore be something ahead of us in time that wipes us out (like self-inflicted climate change)? Or is it something like humans being awfully flawed to go down in universal history as the "first" intelligent and technologically advanced species? Or something else?
I find the idea that life is insanely rare, and that 99.99999999999999999999 of every planet and moon is lifeless. Even if we some how find a way to explore the cosmos, we'll be searching empty dead rocks for the rest of our species lives. That's scary to me.
Transmit math equations into space, but make them all just a little wrong. If someone’s out there, they’ll come by to correct us.
Invent a warp drive.
Cue the T’Plana Hath landing.
Share with them generated videos of us hanging out with other alien species, having a good time, etc. and make it seem like they’re missing out.
"Wait, that earth video is AI-generated-- their hands only have five fingers!"
Well I'm pretty sure as soon as those 179 episodes of The Apprentice that we broadcast in all directions for 11 years reaches an alien civilization it's going to provoke an attack that destroys the entire solar system.
What happened to Single Female Lawyer?!?
This is one answer to the fermi paradox that makes no sense to me. If we did live in a dark forest universe where everyone was hiding from some oppressive existential threat, how would any of the civilisations learn about it?
They would need to be in contact with one another to discover that other civilisations were being wiped out, but for that to happen, the wiping out civilisation would have to be able to find them as well. If they destroyed civ A, they'd definitely be able to find references to civ B in their ruins, somewhere. I see no mechanism by which a civilisation could observe this enemy in action without being detected.
Unless someone has come up with an answer to this issue, in which case I'd like to see it.
Also, if you can detect them, just telling them that you've detected them should change their strategy, because if a basic civilsation like ours can do it then they're not actually that safe by hiding. The dark forest seems like a really fragile arrangement.
The oppressive existential threat you reference doesn't need to exist for the universe to be a dark forest universe. It's enough for every sufficiently advanced civilization to realize that such a threat could exist and remain quiet and hidden just in case.
Right but that's fragile. All it takes is one group to break the ice and suddenly they're all talking.
Also, is the theory that we could live in a dark forest because every single species is insular enough to be afraid of such a threat? That means they all have to believe in the threat and yet also no species is aggressive enough to become the threat. But none of them thinks, "Wait, either we're alone or everyone is hiding. If everyone is hiding, then the threat can't exist, so we may as well say something."
Again, it's fragile. I find it completely unconvincing.
The Prime Directive concept is way more believable to me, as is the idea that life is just sparse.
If I were trying to get quiet aliens to communicate, I would try to get earthlings to clean up their own mess. I can't imagine an advanced civilization wanting to bother with the sad tragedy of humanity's self-destruction. There isn't a day where some random human isn't killing another, and there's usually some government that has organized some mass-kill army operation against another country -- or, worse, it's own people. Even omitting the bloodthirsty, power-hungry, greedy, and liars, the general population can't get together to work for the common good.
Maybe we could start by fixing the climate catastrophe, getting the trash out of the ocean, and then getting food and housing to everyone. If I was an alien that'd been avoiding Earth, that's the sort of thing that would get my attention.
There's also the problem that an advanced civilization will seemingly always ruin a less advanced one with contact.
They might be staying away simply because they're isn't a solution to that issue.
@memfree this. A genocidal, ecocidal planet surrounded by space junk seems like an incredibly unappealing thing to contact.
Personally I think the idea that sapient aliens are likely to be better than us is pretentious.
Which is the perfect premises for a Colonial Invasion by a "superioristic" neighbor. Like the Belgians bringing Civilization to Congo, or France shining the lights of the Republic to North Africa (and S-E Asia). Or the Spanish, saving South America through Religion.
Please, Lizards Overlords, make haste; I have a feeling it is a matter of emergency right now.
Yeah, only the "enlightenment" comes at the price of getting your hands chopped of if you produce insufficient precious materials. No thanks.
Funny how you doomers somehow always expect that other advanced civilisations are somehow better in that regard.
Genuine question: do you think most intelligent life outside of Earth, of existent, is equal to or less advanced than Earth? Or at the same level in issues?
Because in that case, you'd become the doomer, cuz that's depressing.
Certainly not destroying ourselves or our own planet. We're already doing that.
Drop a couple nukes on planets in a predictable order with a predictable time in between. They'll reach out sooner or later once we get close enough.
I think we're the North Sentinelese of the Milky Way and we're being purposefully insulated so we develop technologically and sociologically up to a certain point where we'll be able to join everyone else. I doubt they'll say anything. That's the point. In fact i think we're being shielded as a kindness, possibly protected too. We, as a species, can't even leave the solar system and return. I'm guessing an advanced enough civilization could create a believable enough reproduction of the universe for us to study.
I think the difference between the alien UN and our global organization is probably the same level as the difference between our UN and the North Sentinel Island tribal elders.
It just doesn't make sense that the galaxy is empty. But my theory is just my best guess. I have no concrete evidence. I do think there are some mighty coincidences around here. For instance, a solar system stocked with several planets and minerals and a long life stable star, almost ideal from all the various star types available. A random meteorite hitting the earth after millions of years of dinosaurs not developing intelligent life. A very logical progression of bodies for a space faring civilization to grow. First the moon, then mars, then venus, etc. A lot of asteroids that seem to zip by Earth but always near miss at an alarming common rate. Jupiter strategically placed to keep Earth safe from a large number of meteors and other celestial bodies.
I think humans are a benevolent, non intrusive biological experiment by an advanced species or at the very least a protected species in some nature reserve. Them interacting with us could potentially hamper our development. It could be that religions were their previous attempts but didn't work out so well.
Have you heard of the puddle analogy?
A small amount of water sits there, it this hole in the ground it finds itself in. It looks at this cavity, observes how perfectly it fits the contours of their liquid body. It's perfect! Every nook and cranny seems to be formed to fit the puddle perfectly.
"This hole must have been made for me! It's too much of a coincidence that, with all the ways a hole could form, this one formed perfectly to fit me!"
You're doing that. You're saying it's a crazy coincidence that all the right things were in place here for life to exist that led to us being here... but if it wasn't, then we just wouldn't have developed as life-forms. Or if the environs were different, life would have developed to fit into that kind of solar system. I think you just like the idea, so you believe it, but I think it's better to believe things we have evidence for.
Maybe the hole was made for the puddle, who's to say it wasn't? Perhaps a large number of coincidental occurrences made it, but there sits the water in a hole that perfectly accommodates it. Something that the people who built the road expected. How can one say it wasn't the intention of the organization of the universe in a series of probabilities that one day that water would be right on that puddle, in a specific moment in time? Wouldn't that arguably make the hole made for the water at that point in time ?
I guess that's more of a philosophy debate, but honestly until we get more data, it could be anything. All we know is that our long range scanners have not detected advanced civilizations and that doesn't match our expectations. It could be because they don't exist, it could be because they're hiding themselves from us.
We know very little about alien life at this point and until we have more information, every explanation is possible. Some scientific explanations of the universe or life that were eventually discovered were certainly more wild and vivid than we previously thought before. I'm not saying this is what is necessary happening, just something that could be happening.
Might be or might not be, another option is that space travel is nearly impossible except for one way generation trips.
I wouldn't. If you determine that other life is intentionally staying quiet, why would you not also theorize on why they stay* silent?
I like to imagine a sort of awkward strangers reasoning for it, personally, where it's not a matter of anything untoward involved, so much as nobody able to decide how to break the ice. Supposing that, I wonder what the cosmic icebreaker might be?
Start launching nukes into space in all directions. Don't stop until someone outside Earth complains.
Or maybe just transmit a radio signal that says "Marco."
I don't think that there is likely such a thing that would produce a direct response. If you wanted to not be noticed, why would you change your behavior based on what something else transmits?
Lure them with Reece's Pieces.
Your so gnarp gnarp
Marcoooooo
end humankind and they will make an memorial of earth of how what not to become as species
Doom gloom doom gloom humanity sucks blaaaargh
Make them think some of them have already come to Earth for whatever reason.
Yeah, one way to do this is to start transmitting what sounds like one half of a phone conversation.
...
"Hi, how have you been?"
...
"Ugh that's the worst. You coming by soon?"
...
"Nice I'll get the barbecue ready."
...
"A functioning FTL drive you say?"
It depends on why they're being quiet. In this scenario I think it'd be likely that they're being quiet for some reason that's literally incomprehensible to human-level minds, since they're likely millions or billions of years more advanced than we are. So it's impossible to predict what, if anything, might provoke them to break that silence.
I guess sending a probe there and having it physically poke them might get some kind of reaction, at least.
In this scenario I think it’d be likely that they’re being quiet for some reason that’s literally incomprehensible to human-level minds, since they’re likely millions or billions of years more advanced than we are.
Why's that? It's not an imposition on my part, especially given that unlike the usual scenarios where the reason one might imagine them to be more advanced is that they aren't nearby and are capable of reaching us from afar somehow.
Scenario I've posed is pretty basic, say some extraterrestrial civilizations were nearby (say, we're both able to travel & communicate in a more timely fashion than waiting decades for each trip/exchange), but they're not talking to us because ??? and so...How might ya get'em to meet & talk?
Humans have shown time and time again in their history that they are expansionist, imperialistic assholes. For aliens to be spooked, we only need to show that tendency on a cosmic scale. If we start sending out probes or even manned missions to far away places that are barely likely to support life, we will instantly label ourselves as greedy conquerors. As soon as a colony of ours starts sending out new missions to create even more colonies, that's when all civilizations, even the less advanced, realize that we're the first stage of a cosmic cancer that must be nipped in the bud at all costs.
If we launched a rocket at them with our garbage, or maybe our political leaders.
Re-elect Trump
This reminds me of the six possibilities for extra terrestrial life, one of which is everyone is listening and no one is broadcasting.
They’re probably waiting for us to get past the Great Filter.