Opinion | Why Aren’t More People Getting Married? Ask Women What Dating Is Like.
Opinion | Why Aren’t More People Getting Married? Ask Women What Dating Is Like.
Harping on people to get married from up in the ivory tower fails to engage with reality of life in the dating trenches.
I like the suggestion that we concern ourselvrs more with the quality of men's internal lives, but I do worry we're still objectifying men as 'the problem'.
It'll stop once it stops being a problem. FTA:
He had recently read about a high school creative writing assignment in which boys and girls were asked to imagine a day from the perspective of the opposite sex. While girls wrote detailed essays showing they had already spent significant time thinking about the subject, many boys simply refused to do the exercise or did so resentfully.
I mean, we're not just talking about the ability to communicate (which is important), but the basic ability to empathize. If men (in general) are unwilling to even consider the female point of view, is it any wonder why women have a difficult time dating? This isn't happening in a vacuum; there are real reasons why this is happening.
Boys refusing to do an exercise about imagining a day as the other gender represents a social problem, not a men problem. High school boys who refuse to imagine themselves as someone else were taught to be resistant to that idea, and not only by men but society as a whole.
You couldn't be more in your own echo chamber. If other men are telling you woman also act the same way as some men and also have issues and you refuse to see another position or point of view you are the problem.
Think of the structural issues which have caused this to be the case. Blaming men for not achieving an externally defined target isn't going to help anyone.
Hate the game, not the player.
I would hesitate to draw conclusions from something like that. Both me and a lot of the other men I know just flat out skipped basically every assignment like that if it didn't give enough points to be worth the effort, from middle school up through college.
Beyond that, it just seems like a shitty assignment as a whole. Because either a) it's done under an assumption that their day as the opposite sex would be spontaneous, and thus would have very few relevant differences from their normal days (and we can easily guess those differences) or b) it's done under an assumption of having always been the opposite sex, in which case it would just be an exercise in the butterfly effect, since huge amounts of things would be different, to the point that any generic hypothetical day would work.
All this is to say, it's a prime assignment for skipping
You take one cherry-picked anecdote and then generalize that to the entire population. You are the problem.
Navigating interpersonal relationships in a time of evolving gender norms and expectations “requires a level of emotional sensitivity that I think some men probably just lack, or they don’t have the experience,” he added.
I like the quote above about this topic but it does still seem like men are the problem. The problem is that we as a society haven't taught those skills and worse yet reinforce the opposite. We should be concerned with men's internal lives and mold them to fit into modern society
Seriously. We can't just call men "the problem". We have to address the problems men are having in their social lives and in dating. Men are not being given a fair shot to bring their best selves.
This is hilariously delusional. Delete this post.
A big part is diminishing religiosity. There is little point in getting married if you aren't religious. Thanks to progress made by LGBT couples, most of the legal benefits of marriage are shared by domestic partnerships. Traditionalists on the left and the right make a big deal of this, but it is of negligible factual importance.
I don't think most people who get married do it for religious reasons or even to start a family in the US anymore. People do it since they see it a formal a commitment and want to announce their love in public.
I'm pretty sure it's pretty clear that the slight increase in domestic partnerships over marriage does not shore up the declining marriage rates.
“Ask women what dating is like”. Good idea if you want a biased one sided opinion.
This article is vomit.
Biggest issue with the article. NO male voices, and it's repeating the same lines I have heard since the mid 00's.
Now I acknowledge that there hasn't been much movement on the dating front, but men are only half the problem, as they are only half the population.
They would change in a hurry as a group if they needed to, but men aren't a monolith and neither are women.
You want men to be better, be better yourself. The article is garbage by saying men need to step up while not talking to them about the issues they face in the dating world. ESPECIALLY if they aren't Hetronormative.
Ask a woman what dating is like. You, personally. I dare you.
Only issue is, clearly you won't listen to their answer.
There is a widespread, socially disruptive, and sometimes life threatening epidemic of unfuckable dudes.
There are challenges with expectations and entitlements on all sides, but the unfuckable dudes are not rising to meet the challenges.
What about all the unfuckable women? Again you look at everything one sided.
Both sexes need to get better. You’re saying that it’s all up to the men. In other words what you’re saying is women don’t have to be responsible for anything, they can act any way they want. A very entitled and selfish attitude.
Did you ever consider that this toxic mentality DRIVES AWAY the good men? Maybe good men want nothing to do with you because of your mentality. That leaves only the toxic men to put up with your bullshit, so that’s all you see.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The most recent wave of commenters have tended to position themselves as iconoclasts speaking hard truths: Two-parent families often result in better outcomes for kids, writes Megan McArdle, in The Washington Post, but “for various reasons,” she goes on, this “is too often left unsaid” — even though policy wonks, and the pundits who trumpet their ideas, have been telling (straight) people to get married for the sake of their children for decades.
But harping on people to get married from high up in the ivory tower fails to engage with the reality on the ground that heterosexual women from many walks of life confront: that is, the state of men today.
Ms. Camino, for her part, has dabbled in dating since her partner left, but hasn’t yet met anyone who shares her values, someone who’s funny and — she hesitates to use the word “feminist” — but a man who won’t just roll his eyes and say something about being on her period whenever she voices an opinion.
The in-depth interviews, he said, “were even more dispiriting.” For a variety of reasons — mixed messages from the broader culture about toughness and vulnerability, the activity-oriented nature of male friendships — it seems that by the time men begin dating, they are relatively “limited in their ability and willingness to be fully emotionally present and available,” he said.
Navigating interpersonal relationships in a time of evolving gender norms and expectations “requires a level of emotional sensitivity that I think some men probably just lack, or they don’t have the experience,” he added.
The behaviors were ubiquitous enough that Ms. Inhorn compiled a sort of taxonomy of cads, such as the “Alpha males” who “want to be challenged by work, not by their partners” or the “Polyamorous men” who claim “that their multiple attachments to women are all ‘committed.’” Her breakdown — table 1.1 in the book — reads like a rigorous academic version of all the complaints you’ve ever heard from your single female friends.
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Or women could just lower their standards if they don't think anyone is good enough for them. That's basically what men have been told for ages, that women don't need to go about changing themselves to meet the standards of men. Surely the same operates in reverse, no? If women don't like their prospects, they can either lower their bar or stay single since men don't need to change themselves to please women?
The standard doesn't necessarily apply in reverse if you look at how the work is split between male and female partners in hetero relationships - it's often skewed that the woman does a lot more emotional work, household work, and childcare, on top of also having full time jobs. I think you're right though, if men aren't meeting women's standards, then women should either be content to be single, hook up with other women (for those who would prefer), or reexamine how important romantic relationships are for them.
if men aren’t meeting women’s standards, then women should either be content to be single, hook up with other women, or reexamine how important romantic relationships are for them.
I take issue with the part that is bold and italisied. Not sure what you are saying, but it seems like a gross misunderstanding how people work.
I feel like at least in Europe a lot of people see marriage as an outdated concept.
This comment section went from zero to one hundred real quick
It always does on mensliberation. Just got to get used to it and plan on it
There have been scientific studies to determine if humans are monogamous or not ... it was inconclusive ... we like to think that we can or should be paired together for life and live happily ever after but in reality, most of us are not.
The majority of my friends get together for a few years and then divorce, separate or live together in a personal hell because they feel they have to.
I have friends in Quebec in Montreal that have been together for 50 years now. They never had children worked as artists and writers their whole lives and pretty much had a free life between themselves. They made an agreement with each other when they started living together that every five years, they would sit down and discuss if they wanted to continue their relationship. They've been doing that ever since.
I do that in a way with my wife every few years ... we also don't have kids ... we just sit down and talk about whether or not we want to continue. It's not done during a crisis, a falling out or when we're angry or out of sorts ... we try to have it when we're clearly thinking of things but it's not easy ... it's not an easy topic to discuss ... which is also why it's important to have. After 28 years, we still choose to be together.
The current assumptions and expectations that society has about monogamy and commitment are insane. The idea that one person should meet all of your social, relationship and sexual needs is insane. Especially for those people who consider being attracted / look at other people / looking at porn to someone else as cheating. Like you don't stop feeling physical attraction or even get crushes if you are committed. You just don't do anything that violate other peoples trust.
The queer communities take on monogamy and commitment that does have any assumptions is really the best method going forward. Not to mention the removal of gender expectations for house work etc. Its exactly like you described it. An on-going discussion about what your commitment means and what is and isn't allowed. It priories the relationship over everything else.
I'm single but I'm taking notes, this is good advice...
Yup, been with my partner for over a decade. Live together, not married, no kids. Originally there was some talk of marriage, but I've always said that there's no reason to insert the state or the church into our relationship. There's nothing stopping either of us from leaving the relationship if we're not into it any more. It keeps us treating each other with respect, knowing that there's no higher authority telling us we have to stay together until we spend thousands of dollars in paperwork and waiting periods.
That is a great point and I wish they went further on the better social safety nets. If you really want healthy children that should be the focus regardless of gender of the parent. I think its odd when people talk about how marriage is only for children or you need to be married to have children its gross and so old fashioined.
yeah like why can't people just get married if they want to get married, or not get married if they don't want to get married? has never made sense to me