US judge rules: if you can't prove damages, car-makers can continue to intercept and record customers' mobile phone activity.
US judge rules: if you can't prove damages, car-makers can continue to intercept and record customers' mobile phone activity.
A Seattle-based appellate judge ruled that the practice does not meet the threshold for an illegal privacy violation under state law, handing a big win to automakers Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and General Motors.
Isn't this just a basic legal concept?
"In order to claim damages, there must be a breach in the duty of the defendant towards the plaintiff, which results in an injury"
Basically the judge is saying the plaintiff didn't establish the basic foundation of a tort case. He's not saying this isn't wrong, he's saying they didn't present the case in a way that proves it.
It's not enough to say "you shouldn't be doing this"--even if that's true.
the question here is, on it's face does an invasion of privacy constitute an injury? I'd argue that yes, it does. Privacy has inherent value, and that value is lost the moment that private data is exposed. That's the injury that needs to be redressed, regardless of whether or how the exposed data is used after the exposure. There could be additional injury in how the data is used, and that would have to be adjudicated and compensated separately, but losing the assurance that my data can never be used against me because it is only know to me is absolutely an injury in and of itself.
It sounds like you'd make a better lawyer than whoever brought this case.
I agree with you for whatever it's worth.
I mean how did I get checks from Google and Facebook for violating privacy then?
The lawyers proved the case
Those checks go to the larger YouTube channels, not people like you and me. Did you mean something different?
/s
Sure except under this logic there's no injury to someone peering through your windows. After all they didn't do anything else...
Nice take.
I myself am fine with the ruling, but only if we get a full-ownership deal on the car, and can legally completely gut and replace parts that do that. Also, the car should be sold with a warning label regarding these issues.
Take a page from the conservative/GOP playbook and just find an activity judge who will wholesale accept your fabricated claim and provide a favorite judgement.
Disappointing result but this seems like something for the legislature to fix. Courts aren't always the solution, sometimes you have to just fix the damn law.
But that would mean the politicians would have to actually work instead of photo ops and promises!!!!
America sucks. Seriously. I'm just waiting for another country to bring it to the USA, because it seems inevitable.
People gotta stop putting faith into these ultimately crooked nations.
Will it be another country though? Seems like the power has shifted and is continuing to shift from the nation state.
I mean ok but the fact that your car is spying on you has to break a thousand big tech nda’s
I wonder how long until we get to jailbreak our cars just so those cock suckers can’t spy on us.
This is why I keep my 2006 toyota in tip top shape. I will drive that car as long as I possibly can.
I've got a 2007 Kia that I'm planning to drive until I can't fix it anymore
So far that's proving to be a pretty easy given the cost and availability of parts
I'm taking my 2006 Avalon to 300k miles and beyond!
What's the difference between never connecting your phone to a brand new high tech car and having no tech in an older car?
It can't be illegal because you agree to allow them when you purchase the new vehicle. It's all there in the T&C and PP, which no one ever reads. Don't like it? Don't buy new cars. I won't.
So if I buy a used car they can’t do all that right?
Right?
Same privacy policy authorizing them to harvest your data, but older cars have a more limited capability to collect data compared to newer cars filled with sensors, cameras, and phone integrations. Plus older cellular networks are defunct for older vehicles so they can't just exfil it without you helping or bringing it in to physically access it.
Illegal terms in T&C are still illegal regardless of whether you agreed to them or not in the US.
You can get a car, just don't connect your phone to it.
One of these companies needs to be beached to prove damages, I guess.
Time for an old fashioned beach-off
So ask the judge why car companies want to track judges?
Obvious next question: how’s the privacy policy on 3rd party stereo makers like Pioneer, Kenwood, Alpine, Jensen, etc.?
Should be better since they usually don't have an uplink capability. But be real careful of any model that has Internet for any reason.
Well.. fuck. More reason to not buy newer cars. At least you Americans are lucky. You can drive a dinosaur if it met with regulations. You technically don't have to buy new cars.. ever.
The scary thing? Define "new". This judgment is from a lawsuit in 2014. So any car made in at least the last 9 years is doing this. Maybe newer cars are doing even worse things.
Yep.
Setting aside questions of legality, it seems kind of like it wouldn't encourage someone to purchase their cars.
Not a problem! Jack used car prices up to new cars, prevent public infrastructure and provide benefits for cars, all car manufacturers have similar privacy policies. Combine all three and you have customers that need a car to live, might as well get a new one if decade old ones are the same price or have no stock, and suddenly there isn't much choice.
That only helps when there's viable alternatives. Since pretty much all auto manufacturers do something like this it's not really a distinguishing feature.
And even if it was: how much worse/more expensive would a car need to be for you to not pick it over one that reads your text messages. And then ask the same question not for "you", but for the average consumer. Then be sad ...
Yeah but the vast majority of car buyers won’t know about this or care. We’re all privacy advocates here but everyone and their mother is on Facebook or Instagram and is happily giving away all their information already anyway.
We’re all up in arms about this here in this thread, located in a self-selecting micro-community of people centered around a shared interest in the control of our data. If you called your mother and told her about this would it stop her from buying a new car in the future?
Correct, the vast majority of people don't care.
Well I am still so happy that I decided specifically to get a newish car that doesn't have a touchscreen or any of this nonsense.
Wait, how are CARS intercepting mobile activities?
When you connect to Bluetooth, it asks your phone to share call, contact and SMS information.
Think like the old horrible headunit text implementation, the ability to scan your contact list from the car, and see your recent calls.
Mozilla tested a bunch. Try a search on the platform and see.
Through android auto and apple car play would be my guess, but i don't know.
There’s no way Apple lets the automaker access app data from your phone. Apps on the phone can’t even see data from other apps on the phone.
There are two ways I can think of for the infotainment to get the messages. The first is by OCR-ing the CarPlay screen, which is shady as hell. The second is a feature like this one where the car has Bluetooth notification integration.
Thank goodness for Signal
If you connect your phone to the car, can it spy on your Signal messages? I mean, they have to decrypt on your end for you to see them, right? Or has Signal taken specific steps to stop this?
Just gotta get someone to hack their system. Then it'll be easy to prove damages
Yet another item on my list of why I'll never buy a modern car.
I recently found a video talkkng about privacy. One of the topic was that privacy does not ring any bell in people's mind. Contrary to intimacy. Maybe we should all replace privacy by intimacy so we can tell what is really implied to non software people
Good point. Messages sent, images taken, and 'things happen' in cars.
