I don’t understand people who say they can’t figure out Lemmy or KBin
I don’t understand people who say they can’t figure out Lemmy or KBin
Does federation have a bit of a learning curve? No doubt.
Is Lemmy buggy as heck? Absolutely.
But I don’t think that really justifies a lot of the comments I’m seeing in Reddit alternatives threads that it’s hard to figure out. The front page feed and sort options are very similar to Reddit. Searching for same-instance communities is not too difficult. Posting, commenting, and voting are all quite intuitive. What’s the problem?
Anything new is scary
Reddit is complicated, they just forgot.The digg users said reddit was ugly and they would never use such an ugly site.
I tried explaining reddit to a diehard forum user, why are all the replies out of order? why are upvotes changing the posting order? this is so complicated!Don't explain, tell them where to start and how to start. then it explains itself.
It isn't hard to sign up for. No one is saying that is the case. It gets confusing when people start talking about adding subscriptions from other instances and how you can copy and paste the link and subscribe. That right there is where 95% of the people on the internet stop caring.
If the developers of Lemmy and the wider Fediverse ever get that fleshed out in an intuitive way I think popularity will go pretty fast.
That and long term if there is a way for information to be collectively backed up so that if some owner shuts down an instance everything isn't gone.
It makes no sense to me that there are separate forums for the same topic that have the same names other than "@instance". IMO there should be a single place that is /politics which has the same posts and comments regardless of which instance you're logged into. If these instances are "federated" with each other then they should act like a single shared space. Or at least that's how it seems like it should work to me.
Reddit has been around for quite a while. There are those of us who used to be tech-savvy "back in the day" that don't handle change either quickly or well. For a casual social-media only user, this can be similar to the experience of a cave-person discovering fire. There are bound to be questions, especially when dealing with multiple types of instances on the fediverse. If we want this to grow into its full potential, we NEED to be patient and welcoming to even the most technologically illiterate.
In addition to the learning curve and the minor bugginess of Lemmy and Kbin, I feel like there may be some cognitive dissonance going on for users that are on the fence on whether they want to switch. To resolve the dissonance, one could either change their behavior (switch to Lemmy or kbin) or change their cognition (rationalize why they do not want to switch; for example by thinking that Lemmy or Kbin is too hard to use). Changing behavior can be hard especially if it is a habit built over a long period of time, so coming up with excuses for why one doesn't want to switch would be the easier thing to do.
As someone who designs software you are vastly overestimating users, they wake up with their shoes tied together and spill hot coffee on their lap before they even get to the website.
A greater percentage of reddit is younger than some of them realise. So many redditors are going to be used to new reddit, and plug-and-play services in general. Kbin and Lemmy look like old.reddit, and they require them to understand the concept of what a 'server' is to even get started. This is knowledge they've never needed before to use the services they want to use.
Imagine spending all your life eating McDonald's and then somebody told you homemade burgers are way better quality, taste better, cheaper, etc; then when you ask how to get a taste of those bad boys they start with informing you that you'd need to grill them. It's not hard, it's just new.
I don’t think that really justifies a lot of the comments I’m seeing in Reddit alternatives threads that it’s hard to figure out.
Haven't been back there and didn't read the comments...
But I think I can understand to a degree:
- Too many choices: Picking an instance can be confusing for folks that are used to only having to remember 1 name. I personally think this is a bit like people trying Linux for the first time and getting confused by all the choices available. Basically, it's what some people call "analysis paralysis" but add to that the fact that you'll get 12 different recommendations from every 10 people you all (e.g. there's no clear consensus on the "best" one bc "best" means something different to each person). I think one list I saw on GitHub literally had over 200 instances... For non-techies, I could see that being a bit confusing
- UI differences: some things like making a post on kbin are a bit different (IMO not bad but still different enough that I could see some folks getting confused). Doing searches on lemmy for specific topics (not finding communities but searching for something in a community) is done from a different area on lemmy than on Reddit and IMO is kind of a pain in the ass currently. And on kbin, frankly, I'm not even sure we have that feature at all.
- Missing features: haven't tried mobile apps (which could again be another point of confusion) but for desktop at least, AFAIK we don't have anything comparable to RES yet. There's no analog to multireddits. And we don't have anything similar to reddit's Saved feature yet. All valid complaints in my opinion. And someone used to any or all of those, might spend a lot of time looking bc they just don't know if it's hidden or does not exist. So, yeah, I could see so confusion there too.
I think there are a lot of advantages they're probably missing too. I like that kbin/lemmy we can choose whatever fucking avatar we want instead of being limited to customizing our snoz or wtf Reddit calls their mascot thing. I saw one guy mentioning how there's no karma bullshit to deal with for new accounts and absolutely agree with that sentiment.
tealdeer; meh, I like the fediverse and it's not hard for me but I'm not shitting on people who don't get it. If they want help, would probably help but not going to push it on people either. It is what it is and that's good enough for me
Fear and an unwillingness to try new things.
For example, some of the complaints that people had about Mastodon early on were just odd to me. They made such a big deal out of "you have to pick a server, no one understands that" or nitpicking UI interfaces between Mastodon and twt. They didn't have logical arguments IMHO it was them just not being happy about change and not being honest about that.
A lot of people don't really understand computers. We mostly know how to manipulate the user interface (UI) to get the computer to do what we want, but if you switch up the icons or install a new desktop environment, I guarantee you that 99% of users will be completely lost.
This is because the UI abstracts the complex process of running a computer so that the user can just think about getting things done. The user doesn't need to know what it means to "go to the start menu and click the Notepad app." Practically, this is Windows-speak for "open the default text editor". However, if you take a Windows user and drop them into a Linux and ask them to open up the default text editor, they probably won't know how to do that unless a Windows-like desktop environment is chosen.
Basically, a lot of people don't "know how to use Reddit" so much as that they know how to get the Reddit website to do what they want it to. Lemmy is even slightly different than Reddit, cosmetically different. Although we usually use the phrase "cosmetically different" to imply that the difference is not important, because we rely on GUIs to understand computers, cosmetic differences are really important in UIs.
Go look for posts on Lemmy discussing Jerboa and the other apps. The apps mostly differ in how the user is able to interact with the site. They should all have the full functionality of Lemmy (or are working towards it), but the ways of presenting that functionality to the user are different.
One of the most important groups that moved to the Threadiverse were the blind community. It is because of the inaccessible user interface in the Reddit app that they decided to move over.
And let me be very clear that the fact that computers abstract away their complexity is very much a good thing. That's why we have computers: to do tedious, complex work automatically and simply. Not everyone needs to be a computer expert, but I do think that developers need to resist the urge to make cosmetic changes that don't improve functionality. I realize that this is an ill-defined tall order. Regardless, we need to be aware that most people don't know how computers work.
I think that, in order to get people joining our communities, we should try to be compassionate and helpful when it comes to users learning how to use site. Actually, this is a special case of my more general position that we should try to be compassionate and helpful in the face of people who are confused and trying to learn, whatever the subject. I know it can be hard; if I'm being honest, I have a bad habit of getting annoyed at people who don't look like their listening. But we need to unlearn that.
I can't put aside my sneaking suspicion that can't figure out any of these tools: kbin, lemmy, mastodon, etc.... Is more or less code for, "I have reach and influence on platform x, and I need can't figure out how to be that person here."
Can they setup an account? Can they read? Can they write? These seem to all be achievable. Can they influence? Well... should that be the goal?
“Magazine” is the biggest offender here. That’s a very unintuitive term.
To be fair, Reddit's variant, "subreddit", isn't very intuitive either, especially if you don't come from a forum background.
I feel like certain users are echoing others in terms of the “oh it’s too hard/complicated” - I don’t know, imo not really just sign up, subscribe to your mags of interest which will pull across the fediverse and engage (up/down/comment) as much as you like lol… really not that hard but I guess change is hard for people (but then it’s not really much a seismic change? I don’t know - I guess I like trying new things).
KBin is actually the best reddit alternative I've seen in along time. The truth is though that reddit has a 15 year head start and giant conglomerate corperate backing. Even though federated sites like this are getting better and better all the time the user base is still small when you compare it to the internet monster that is reddit. This site still has along way to go in terms of users, content, and overall polish and ease of use. I look forward to the day when I site like this can scare the likes of reddit, but sadley I don't feel that today is that day. This is coming from a place of support for the fediverse btw.
It took me a couple days of reading and browsing around and creating accounts to figure out the fediverse and Lemmy and kbin. Until it actually clicked in my head that I was in one instance, seeing content posted in a community of another instance, commented on by users of even other instances, and how it worked between all that. I wanted to actually understand the mechanism, to better navigate it. Now, it all seems simple to me, but it was all very new for about a week. Also, the connection and federation errors that were happening a lot added to the confusion to a lot of people, I feel.
I am now very excited about the potential of all this. Decentralized networks rock.
Now, I think a random user could just show up and make an account and start enjoying it quickly, just would take some time to find the communities they want content from.
They are saying it's hard to figure out as it's hard to figure out. It, as you say, has a learning curve that isn't really present in Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, Tiktok etc.
Choosing an instance seems important. Many of the large instances are overtly communist, quietly communist, piracy, porn, nsfw focused or a safe space for lgbtq+ people. Instances are changing hands and de federating each other. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of GDPR type agreements about user data. If a server vanishes with all your data, can you legally retrieve it? Are they obligated to delete data on request? who is they?
Choosing communities is complicated. There is massive duplication of communities across instances most of which have have very little content or members.
The apps are all alpha quality from what I know. curious about accessibility options too, r/blind was hit hard.
Whilst I was trying to get a grip on how Lemmy & kbin interact, Lemmy seems to have blocked kbin access.
I think I could sell Lemmy to the average linux user but it appears I don't have to as most of them are here anyway. It's the other 99% of the user base that's the issue.
Honestly I wouldn't even bother trying to convince my meat space techy friends at the moment never mind a non-techy community with a few hundred thousand iphone and windows users.
I do get ppl saying its complicated. A lot of people dont know much about servers just as a start? (Not that you really have to to use kbin or lemmy.) or know anything about federation or what it mean in this sense. If you ask them what is meant by instance, most people saying so probably wouldn't understand that in this sense even if English's their maternal language. Not even that those people arent smart, just like just because you dont understand a foreign language doesnt mean youre not smart: this is just an area they dont know about.
I think some people find it strange that people are confused, because maybe they dont often talk with people who arent as familiar with technology, or more used to being on 'tech' related parts of the internet where some people would understand these. It seems this way bc the community of kbin seems to be more into technology, like i seen programmer humor posts get popular a lot, and discussions about linux, and the technology magazine, and stuff like that.
If so i can see why someone being confused would be surprising. But know that: a lot of people probably wouldnt join other social media either if it was more user-driven (in terms of setup? If thats phrased right?) which is why stuff gets more simplified on official websites and app. Is important to remember that many people (even some my own age!) dont have any context for all of this stuff they would need to deal with and decide in order to use Kbin/Lemmy - dont know what is an instance. What is federation. Defederation. I would say its easy to understand once you try, but i know i speak for myself who already has some knowledge and interest about technology and learn fast. And not everyone even wants to use something that required them to figure it out as they go.
Consider that slight entry barrier to be a feature. Do you really want the Fediverse experience to be a 100% copy of Reddit?
It took me a little while to figure out reddit. After migrating from reddit I actually found it easier to pickup this time around. I am sure some people might have some trouble but as long as we make this place welcoming and helpful for new users asking questions people will want to migrate.
Any website that doesn't have a simple sign up in two steps (username/email, password) and everything clearly explained to them like a 5 year old will receive tons of complaints about being confusing. It's just the internet
I can't either, but I'm also on the border of don't care and actively glad. Maybe there won't be such an Eternal September here. That would be a win.
is Lemmy buggy as heck? Absolutely.
dunno, but this is the main reason I juggle between Lemmy and Kbin. Lemmy is more intuitive/similar to reddit, but it's buggy and has an ugly UI. Kbin has a better UI and less buggy, but has some questionable design
There's a bit of learning curve for sure, but people shouldn't overthink the federation aspect too much. At least here on Kbin there is plenty of content already.
I asked someone who wrote a huge reddit post about it, and they responded with "idk, I just looked at it and didn't get it."
I think people are just resistant to change, and only want a system that they think is 100% a clone. Honestly, IDK how you look at lemmy and don't think it looks like reddit, but I guess it is just that browse local is the default option. I guess browse all should be the the default for now, but I actually like browsing by local first to see what is going on in my local instance before looking at the rest of the fediverse.
when you are used to reddit its not easy to make yourself feel at home in fediverse. The Lemmy themes dont look to good on widescreens.
I can recommend kbin with rounded corners + Stylus add-on with "kbin-it theme" activated.