Red Hat’s commitment to open source: A response to the git.centos.org changes
Red Hat’s commitment to open source: A response to the git.centos.org changes
More about Red Hat's decision to make CentOS Stream the primary repository for RHEL sources.
Some mix of wrong and right, the exact proportions of which I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.
There is a reason some of us chose to support Debian and its model of allowing downstream companies like Ubuntu (Canonical) to give back up to the open source father. And this is it. We dont need to compromise here. We already have a system that works perfectly and provides a choice for what suits you. If you are an enterprise then try Ubuntu instead of RHEL. If you are a home user you dont need enterprise support and can help us log bug reports and create the next version of Trixie. We need more testers and we have fought this long fight and proven we wont give up. What other proof do you need?
I got a feeling that the kind of people that use Rocky or Alma linux would have a heart attack dealing with snap on ubuntu. Maybe they're better off switching to Debian LTS instead.
As an inexperienced user, I can tell you that Debian is way harder to use than most people think. Out of the box, the distro is pretty bare ones. I'm having a blast using an Arch based distro, but on Debian I had to do everything manually. Stable is freaking old and unstable has lots of limitations, Docker for example is a true pain.
Ubuntu, Mint, Zorin, POP OS, are way better than Debian for users like me.
There is a reason some of us chose to support Debian
It's amazing how some people have to learn the lesson that you can only trust non-profit foundations, not for-profit corporations, over and over again, and then even then it still somehow never seems to stick.
More recently, we have determined that there isn’t value in having a downstream rebuilder.
Alright, well, there it is in plain English. They're killing downstream clones like Rocky, Alma, etc.
I have to wonder how this is going to affect software which officially only supports (insert RHEL clone here). I use DaVinci Resolve for work every day, historically they've only supported CentOS, and just recently they started supporting Rocky as well. VFX isn't my wheelhouse, but I know the situation is basically the same for those programs as well.
At least they aren't pretending to be the good guys anymore.
I am actually wondering whether they'll start considering a Flatpak version of Resolve. Seems like Blackmagic is reluctant to support anything other than RHEL and CentOS, and RedHat seems to be moving towards Flatpak anyways, given their recent move to stop shipping LibreOffice.
I'm just happy if it hurts Oracle. Because fuck Oracle.
Resolve Studio has worked well for me on Pop!_OS with NVIDIA GPU and many others have success with Ubuntu, Debian, etc. Only hiccups are related to decklink drivers and very recent kernels, but the BMD Linux forum typically has patches posted before I have problems.
Lots of words to say:
- We do what we are legally allowed to do.
- We don’t care for the spirit of open source (anymore).
- Pay up or fuck off!
headline: IBM STILL DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ITS RESPONSIBILITY WITH OPEN SOURCE
Nothing much more to see here; just, the spots have finally come in on the leopard.
But, as IBM isn't responsible for systemd, ansible and similar trumped-up barely-capable competitors, it's not all IBM's fault. Let it sell crutches as long as it can.
I don't think anyone's arguing that Red Hat isn't in the right, legally, to do what they did (anymore). At this point, I think Redhat users are just tired of being jerked around. We're not children, most of us in the industry have been around a while and have seen this same story play out over and over again. We can see the writing on the wall and they've destroyed the trust of their community so, a long winded blog post defending their decision, arguing that they are within their rights to do it is largely irrelevant at this point. They've lost the narrative and the industry (us) will respond by gradually finding ways either away from or around Red Hat and associated projects. Soon, the only people left using it will be the same people who use other irrelevant and dated software, government.
I don’t think anyone’s arguing that Red Hat isn’t in the right, legally, to do what they did (anymore).
I am. It's there in the GPL text in black and white. Red Hat does not have any right to place restrictions on the distribution of derivative works that they do not own the original copyright for. Threatening to terminate a service agreement is a restriction.
All of the projects that own FOSS code that Red Hat uses in RHEL could legitimately revoke Red Hat's license to use that software on the grounds that they have violated the licensing terms required by the GPL.
I am. It’s there in the GPL text in black and white. Red Hat does not have any right to place restrictions on the distribution of derivative works that they do not own the original copyright for. Threatening to terminate a service agreement is a restriction.
From what I understand, these restrictions only apply to if you have been provided the software. Red Hat is under no legal obligation to supply you with their software, nor to continue doing so if you violate their terms.
I agree this makes them total scumbags, but as far as I understand the GPL they are not breaking the law.
Red Hat does not have any right to place restrictions on the distribution of derivative works that they do not own the original copyright for. Threatening to terminate a service agreement is a restriction.
That's the first time I've heard someone argue to that point. I agree.
The arguments I'd heard were that they didn't have the right to stop publicly distributing the sources. They do have the right under the GPL stating that the source must only be provided along with the binaries and, if the binaries are only available to subscribers, so too are the sources.
Guess me as an end user for Fedora should stop contributing my time and energy to identify and fix bugs, or get Fedora's name out there, because I FIND NO VALUE in giving Red Hat my FREE work.
One thing while I worked at Red Hat, they will under pay you, they will push you beyond the breaking point, they will under value you, because "we will change the world." And apparently you change the world by all those things I just mentioned.
those who do not want to pay for the time, effort and resources going into RHEL
Standard RHEL server subscription costs 800$/year, a ridiculous price for an individual to pay (yeah I know it's called Enterprise Linux, but still)
those who want to repackage it for their own profit
Funny considering that AlmaLinux OS Foundation is a non-profit
The developer subscription provides no-cost RHEL to developers and enables usage for up to 16 systems, again, at no-cost
Until RedHat decides to pull the rug, just like it already did with CentOS
Also:
The first thing to understand is that you cannot renew your no-cost Red Hat Developer Subscription for individuals after the first year. Unlike a paid subscription, the no-cost edition for developers is limited to one year.
So, what's a developer to do? Fortunately, that's easy: You can just register again. Yes, it's that simple. Once your developer subscription expires, simply re-register and get a new, no-cost subscription. Note that you must wait until your current subscription expires before you can renew it.
From: https://developers.redhat.com/articles/renew-your-red-hat-developer-program-subscription
Simply rebuilding code, without adding value or changing it in any way
Yeah, I think setting up build and distribution infrastructure is not adding any value
Funny considering that AlmaLinux OS Foundation is a non-profit
He's clearly talking about Oracle though? Like, that's almost certainly why Red Hat is doing what they're doing, rather than specifically targeting Alma/Rocky, because Oracle Linux is a paid competitor that does exactly what he describes
From experience, renewing once the subscription has expired isn't simple, mine never kicked back in properly. I also don't have access to the KB that explain even simple bugs on install.
RH basically does not care, and i don't think this is going to be financially significant for them for quite a while (iff they can legally get away with this). the people choosing to pay $600 a year per server do not care about open source, they care that they servers are running linux and have 7 days a week 4 hour support. the people that use RHEL daily and care about open source are not decision makers, and convincing higher-ups to stop paying for RHEL, migrate the entire tech stack to something else with support and pay that is a non-starter.
In a few years, the quality of the service will probably be significantly worse, and at that point servers currently on RHEL will have to be mostly replaced. at that point only will RH see a downside to doing this, and by that time the execs will have gotten their package for making Good Decisions and will have ran out of there, leaving the comunity to pick up the pieces.
RedHat needs to be profitable, and it's getting harder and harder for them. RHEL is not their main product anymore. Everything is about Openshift and it's Ecosystem. But Openshift is expensive.
Additionally are the European sub divions not happy how the last round of layoffs went.
RHEL is not their main product anymore.
RedHat losing the plot is their own mistake to correct. I've been telling my OS TAM as much for a decade.
Everything is about Openshift and [its] Ecosystem. But Openshift is expensive.
And oVirt competes well.
But when your entire business is based around massively hyped bags stapled to the side of a badly-managed central product you don't mention or promote, what's the expectation?
RedHat was solid for the very thing that made centos a popular option. But then it had to have more; more, more more.
On the one hand they do have a point, and as a Fedora volunteer it saddens me to see that it is affecting the wrong crowd, RH workers, who are receiving directly and indirectly the backlash, mostly snowballed by clickbait and plain disinformation.
On the other hand saying that redistributing the code you provide under the GPL "doesn't provide any value" sounds just as dystopian as it seems.
At this ratez they are just digging themselves deeper at this PR nightmare.
affecting the wrong crowd, RH workers, who are receiving directly and indirectly the backlash, mostly snowballed by clickbait and plain disinformation.
I know many former SCO employees now working for RedHat. Ironically, now they're facing some misdirected backlash after IBM was overly grabby about source code that wasn't proprietary.
There are a few completely fair points in there calling out what they are legally allowed to do (e.g. they are not directly violating GPL) and are doing (contributing changes back upstream, they claim "always"), that's about the only "right" this reader found.
Have some quotes that demonstrate the "wrong":
I feel that much of the anger from our recent decision around the downstream sources comes from either those who do not want to pay for the time, effort and resources going into RHEL or those who want to repackage it for their own profit. This demand for RHEL code is disingenuous.
Ultimately, we do not find value in a RHEL rebuild and we are not under any obligation to make things easier for rebuilders; this is our call to make.
Simply rebuilding code, without adding value or changing it in any way, represents a real threat to open source companies everywhere. This is a real threat to open source, and one that has the potential to revert open source back into a hobbyist- and hackers-only activity.
Simply rebuilding code, without adding value or changing it in any way, represents a real threat to open source companies everywhere. This is a real threat to open source, and one that has the potential to revert open source back into a hobbyist- and hackers-only activity.
This quote is particularly damning to me. It's right in the preamble of the GPL "Developers that use the GNU GPL protect your rights with two steps: (1) assert copyright on the software, and (2) offer you this License giving you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify it." Emphasis mine. It's a legal right, that I can redistribute it, whether or not I modify it in anyway. Stomping on my legal rights is not a threat.
Whole-heartedly agree on the quote and it stuck out to me even before coming to the comments here. Redhat might not like that people are repacking "their" software, but the spirit of GPL software is that you can charge for it but folks can also go through the trouble of building it themselves should they not want to go that route and are able to support/debug/maintain the software themselves on their own hardware.
If they don't think the clauses of GPL are fair, then they should probably stop distributing Linux entirely because their entire business model is founded off of profiting off the work of other open source contributions.
Simply rebuilding code, without adding value or changing it in any way, represents a real threat to open source companies everywhere.
One could argue Redhat already does this on packages they have not improved or submitted contributions for.
I actually agree with Red Hat's decision to not make their sources publicly available to non-customers, and I think this is a good example to set for free software companies. However, this quote shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what free software is. It's not a "threat to open source companies everywhere"; it's a feature. It's the horse you rode in on.
The SFC has suggested this, and Alma Linux wrote about their understanding of Red Hat's terms, but it seems that Red Hat may terminate contracts with customers who redistribute their sources. I think that's quite nasty and very much disagree with it. Grsecurity already does this, and my opinions about that company are the same. I thought it was interesting that Red Hat didn't address this at all in their post...
Simply rebuilding code, without adding value or changing it in any way, represents a real threat to open source companies everywhere. This is a real threat to open source, and one that has the potential to revert open source back into a hobbyist- and hackers-only activity.
This quote is particularly damning to me.
I agree that it's particularly damning, but for a whole different reason. Anybody who considers "a hobbyist- and hackers-only activity" a "threat" to "open source" fundamentally no longer Gets It and is themselves an enemy of Free Software!
I understand "we do not find value in RHEL rebuild." At least, I understand that it means "we do not find the value [to Red Hat] outweighs the cost [to Red Hat]." I don't understand how "simply rebuilding code... represents a real threat to open source companies." It makes it sound like the rebuilders are doing something wrong.
Sure, you can say that it hurts your profits if others are providing an equivalent to your service for free, but if that isn't acceptable, why allow it? Moreso, why allow it for years and then suddenly claim the communities built around that decision are a "threat"?
Maybe I'm misreading, but I think I would respect this position a lot more if it was simply "we can no longer afford the competitive disadvantage," rather than implying various open source communities are actually exploiting and damaging open source.
I'm not entirely sure there are a ton of people/companies that are considering rhel licences vs rocky. All the companies I've worked for are considering debian vs rocky at this point. Not huge but 1000-5000 system type companies. I'd guess that's a huge bulk of the market that's using rocky, and also up steaming patches and big reports.
Cannot wait for vanilla OS 2
@baseless_discourse @uncapybarable with Debian Sid? I can’t wait!
It sounds as though their motivation is mostly aimed at Oracle Linux from this post. Huh, I assumed it was Rocky and Alma.
I asked ChatGPT to do that exercise for me:
I find it deeply troubling to witness the erosion of true open source values within Red Hat, as outlined in the recent blog post by Mike McGrath. While he attempts to defend the company's actions, it is clear that the fundamental principles of software freedom are being undermined.
Firstly, McGrath's claims about Red Hat's commitment to open source development are misleading. Mere code contributions upstream are not sufficient to embody the spirit of the free software movement. True dedication to freedom means liberating users by ensuring that the software they use respects their rights to study, modify, and share it. Unfortunately, Red Hat's actions fall short of this ideal.
The emphasis on backporting patches and maintaining an operating system for extended periods is not inherently incompatible with open source values. However, it is the context in which these activities occur that matters. Red Hat's increasing restrictions on downstream rebuilders and its reluctance to facilitate their efforts is a disservice to the community. By limiting the ability to freely modify and redistribute the software, Red Hat is erecting barriers that hinder innovation and impede the spirit of cooperation that open source should foster.
Furthermore, the dismissal of rebuilders as mere profit-seeking entities is a distortion of reality. These rebuilders play a crucial role in expanding the reach and accessibility of open source software. By disregarding their contributions, Red Hat is failing to recognize the diverse needs of users and the benefits that can arise from a vibrant ecosystem of downstream distributions.
The introduction of CentOS Stream as a replacement for CentOS raises concerns about the viability of a truly community-driven project. While Red Hat claims that the source code remains open, the increased control exerted by the company raises questions about the autonomy and independence of the project. This shift undermines the trust and collaboration that formed the foundation of CentOS and threatens to marginalize the very community that helped build it.
I implore Red Hat to reconsider its stance and recommit to the principles that once defined the company. Open source is not simply about code contributions; it is about empowering users and fostering a community of collaboration, transparency, and shared knowledge. Red Hat must embrace these values fully, or risk betraying the very essence of the open source movement it once championed. Only by upholding software freedom can we ensure a future where technology serves the best interests of all.
IBM is working hard to kill RedHat. They are probably having a party at Canonical right now.
Canonical has their own problems right now... Not a lot of snap fans out there. Canonical seems determined to skate to somewhere their users don't live and create a world they don't want.
That's a whole lot of "Woah is me, I'm so hard done by, praise me for everything I do and most importantly pay me scrubs."
It's actually woe is me
He's taliking like RHEL is the product to be monetized. I always thought the model was: the software is free - pay us for professional, enterprise-level support.
that used to be the motto, but the business masters now demand profits from the puppets or they're coming for their jobs.
The problem is: The larger the usage of RHEL inside a company the more likely they do not need the support anymore, because they can have your own department do it instead. So those companies don't pay for bug fixes or general Linux development, which is a problem. If you want a healthy Linux ecosystem large companies need to pay the maintainers! I don't care if they do it through Redhat or directly.
The new model is "fuck you, pay me"
Be nice if they at least gave Mike a picture for his blog posts.
Friends don't let friends use Red Shat.
I'm supposed to complete a higher level Red Hat cert this year, but I think I'll pass, despite it counting against my KPI. These exams are hard, expensive, take a lot of time to prepare for, and the ROI is increasingly questionable. I'll rather do some vendor-agnostic k8s or Ansible cert instead. This RHEL decision definitely helped to make up my mind.
I also wonder what IBM will do to ceph. Not really buying their spiel.
Red Hat died the day IBM bought them. All that garbage about "leaving Red Hat alone" was of course total nonsense. IBM is doing what it does best -- squeeze its existing customer base for short term gains. This won't be the last thing Red Hat does that makes people annoyed.
Still not nearly as evil as Orkcackle tho.
Totally, but at least Oracle doesn't pretend they are some kind of beacon of open source. Red Hat is trying to party like it's 1999 while it's just a boring division of IBM now.
I'm genuinely scared they'll be coming for ansible next.
Nothing a fork or two won't solve.
Simply rebuilding code, without adding value or changing it in any way, represents a real threat to open source companies everywhere. This is a real threat to open source, and one that has the potential to revert open source back into a hobbyist- and hackers-only activity.
Hacker hoodies activate.