Meetings are the viable alternative to work. Meetings that you don't need to contribute to are even better. Take a break. Catch some zees.
Problem is, that the work is still there after the meeting
This is definitely a difference between people that believe the work they do is important and people just punching a clock.
I teach at a community college (salaried) and my partner works as staff in the same school (hourly). She works her ass off, but when she gets to the end of the day, she is done and leaves work at the office, so attending meetings is no big deal to her. Meanwhile, I've gotten involved enough in peripheral committee work that I regularly stay up working until 1AM because there are literally not enough hours in the day to get done what needs to get done. I could try to leave work at work, but I'd be hanging students and fellow instructors out to dry, so that's not always an option.
See, now you’re talking hourly versus salary. That’s why if the meeting is bullshit, I peace out.
That’s how I look at it. You want to pay me to go to a meeting that could’ve been an email? Ok! Bet!
Someone after my own heart.
This is all well and good as long as you're not that one person who has to actually generate deliverables.
yeah what the fuck; when you're asked to do nothing on company time, you take it!
I used to work at this company where like 3 guys took care of basically everything. All but one of them, let's call him Rob, eventually left to better companies. About a month after that, my team had to deal with a pretty big issue and we were having trouble coming up with a solution so this idiot had the brilliant idea to page Rob. As if the poor guy hadn't spent the last month doing the job of 3 people who were already doing the job of a 5 people each. Rob got online, said "Why did you page me?" and immediately left before getting a response. I liked Rob.
Email recap never comes. Miss out on key decision points. Attend next meeting. Nothing is agreed just talk for the sake of talking. Objections disregarded. Side meeting happens without you. Key points agreed with management in your absence. You're just a cog in a giant hamster wheel. Not even the hamster. Cry at night.
Cry at night.
That would imply that I care. I wouldn't recommend caring.
I'm here for the income, not the outcome. You want to pay me then disregard my advice? That's cool. Check still clears.
Some meetings, I wish I'd bought a steamdeck.
Meeting summary:
- Synergy promoted by Gerald
- Fourth quarter prediction estimate forecasts brainstormed by Jeremy.
- Coffee situation update from Mark.
- Level 4 agility in KCD reached by GreatAlbatross
The original way the first person asked was polite, if intoned gently.
The recommended response is corpospeak.
Corpospeak is never polite.
It just pretends to be.
Like a sociopath.
Corpospeak [...] Like a sociopath.
And this is why LLMs are so well suited for the task! People get genuinely excited by the prospect of using AI to read/reply email... because they don't mean actual thoughtful email written with intent, maybe even emotions or even reasoning. No... no they mean corpospeak that is entirely pointless, empty of meaning and definitely written for a human by human, but rather for a cog, to another lifeless cog in the corporation.
This is why people are investing tons of money and expending tons of CO2.
What a fucking farce of a species we are.
All things considered our species is doing relatively well. Having the ability to assign purpose and use tools does cause us to get stuck in a stupid rut all too often, though.
I can't fathom why a person would willingly use corpospeak. I can't imagine anyone actually likes to speak that way.
I would invite the reader to always call it out when it occurs, and call for all involved parties to speak plain.
Bullshit corpospeak tasks is pretty much the only time I use LLMs. You want us to come up with a paragraph long department motto? Could someone ask ChatGPT and put all of our names under it so none of us waste time from our lives on such a retarded task.
True but that seems to be what she was actually asking for. Her question would be too straightforward, she wanted to get out of the meeting without even hinting at that
The corpospeak way to ask for how to say something in corpospeak would be more like...
I want to say/ask "...", what would be an appropriate way to phrase this in a professional setting?
But yes, phrasing corpospeak is almost always designed such that someone not well versed in it would believe that what is being said is not extremely direct, is not extremely clear, is somewhat ambiguous, a bit more verbose than is necesarry to be concise.
However, if you have worked in a lot of corpojobs... you fairly rapidly learn what phrases actually mean. It just requires some familiarity with the specific situational context, and the way corpo business structure/culture works in general.
Nah, fuck this lickspittle corpo speak!
"What is the purpose of this meeting and why do I need to be included?" is a perfectly polite sentence appropriate in any work environment consisting of mature and distinguished adults.
Do not enslave yourself to the machine, because the people running it will treat you like a slave.
consisting of mature and distinguished adults
That part can actually be problematic in many places in my experience.
I often find that misappropriating an out of context Paul Rudd quote arguably condoning sexual harassment works perfectly to describe the level of effort one should put in;
"Work 60% of the time, Alllll the time"
Any more than 60% effort and it becomes a drain, any less and management will look to replace. 60% effort is the sweet spot for surviving corporate life rather than succumbing to it.
That is absolutely not something to say if the meeting is pulled together by management on high. Peers? Sure you can say stuff like that, but to someone you may not know or have little interaction with that can be a death knell for your reputation.
The trick is to be so reliable that no one would conceive of getting rid of you even if you come off a little assholish sometimes. I started on the help desk at my last job (fairly large company with around ~25k employees and within a year or two I was the go to for a few of the c-levels when they had issues. I pissed off middle management types occasionally when I couldn't do something they wanted right away because I needed more information or whatever and had to wait on something. Anytime they tried to start shit with me it never took long for a bigger fish to get involved and have my back because they were familiar with my work and knew I wasn't just fucking around.
"What is the purpose of this meeting and why do I need to be included" is a perfectly polite series of words to use. The wording matters far less than the tone of voice.
I vastly prefer clear and direct questions over the reply that sounds passive aggressive from the very beginning.
I wouldn’t say “perfectly” polite, but it’s definitely not offensive.
The response in the OP definitely doesn’t need further tonal clarification, though. It’s tough for anyone to classify that response as hostile.
I think you underestimate how thin the skin of the professional managerial class is. It's not about the tone of voice it's about the directness and how that's facilitating "conflict".
I do understand and it does not matter how you phrase it for those types of people. Pretending that it could have been said the 'right' way is a waste of time because, as you said, they consider even asking to be facilitating conflict.
There are also good managers out there, they just aren't as memorable as the ones who make everything into drama. The good ones also tend to be driven to other jobs because of the jerk managers...
Don't find that's true at all. Direct language is much preferred to this bullshit.
When I started my career I quickly became convinced that meetings are the opposite of work. Now a large part of my career is hosting meetings. 😬
My biggest piece of advice to junior staff is: if you're not provided an agenda prior to a meeting, your attendance is not required. RSVP with Yes if it sounds interesting/beneficial and you have the time, otherwise Nope (or Tentative) your way out of it.
The obvious caveat is if that meeting is called by someone with role power over you. In which case: as they clearly don't respect your time, it's on you to (politely) ask them to provide an agenda. It may also indirectly train them to be less shit.
When I started my career I quickly became convinced that meetings are the opposite of work. Now a large part of my career is hosting meetings. 😬
I feel/felt similarly but I am now calling for meetings because it seems to be the easiest way to get my peers and superiors to do their fucking job so that I'm not stuck in limbo waiting for their parts to be finished. It seems like they only respond to slack mentions / emails / task assignments at random which leaves important, unanswered requests/questions just sitting there.
Sorry, this past year I've been working with another department for a project that, due to aforementioned woes, has run about 6-12 months more than it needs to.
I'm in the public sector and everyone is very busy and pulled in many directions so I kind of get it... but I want to be done with this thing.
Also in the public sector and when I started, project managers were required to include everyone under the sun for pointless update meetings every two weeks for the PM to read out the reports everyone gave them so nobody missed anything. By the time they were done everyone wanted to bail, including me. They were meetings that could be an email, and if there were issues then additional meetings were scheduled.
Over time I have been promoted up through PM and now get to define the best practices for projects including meetings. My meetings are productive and people actually want to show up as they are discussions where work might be canceled or put off so people don't get overloaded. I make sure everyone is included without putting anyone on the spot. The departments we work with to create web apps like us more since we started giving reasons for saying no instead of working devs to death in overtime because PMs were not allowed to say no.
I do have one project that is an albatross I can't kill because of the sunk cost fallacy, but at least it is one small project that gets raised every few months to get put on the backburner while the largest and most complex project is now running smoothly. Other PMs have also improved their interactions when they were given examples in how to more clearly communicate their challenges, although a few don't want to give up the 'do everything asked' approach.
We have also had 5 developers who left for the private sector come back over the last 10 years because of the work culture. The grass wasn't greener, but they did come back with new skills and a better appreciation for the improved communication and overtime is almost entirely voluntary!
Just noped out of my last job cos the new manager was randomly calling me without a heads up to understand what the next steps are. Aka asking me and the other team member to do his work for him. I see highly competent people struggling to find jobs and guys like this in F500 companies — and can’t help but wonder what’s wrong with selection.
Meeting host here too Agenda : defective thingamajig from supplier
- agenda Hello everu one we suspect that some mcguffins have been shipped with defectives turbo-encubalators. We have 24h to decide if we need to informed government agency
Inventory people - please identify origine of the turbo-encubalators and deliveries Engineers -please make risk assessment form, we strongly suspect defective product are in service.
Providing agenda is only useful if people fucking read it and inform themselves on the subject before coming in. Hi everybody why am I here? - you were supposed to evaluate the safety risk for customer using this defective component we discovered. - oh Why me? -you are the engineer that designed the part Can't the supplier do the investigation, I have to make a report to my boss to identify where we can cut support
Agreed.
I didn't mention that I also spend time after every meeting I host putting together a summary of what was discussed along with a bullet point list of deliverables, who agreed to work on them, and due dates and then send it to all attendees, invitees, and stakeholders.
It deals with the Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man meme problem and "magnanimous work dodgers" - those who promise the world in meetings but then seemingly disappear off the planet.
It probably should be noted that many of the meetings I host are recurring, often weekly or fortnightly, so it's easy to find a rhythm (and identify the problem children).
I work on the floor in a pretty specialized role, so I can always just use the excuse of having to attend to any given machine coincidentally whenever they want to have a meeting I don't feel like attending.
None of the managers really understand what we do, so they don't challenge the excuses ever.
Sounds like they are talking in buzzwords.
Correct. If we stop using buzzwords, then we will have to start asking ourselves what we are actually doing here
I'm aligned with your perspective, and I appreciate the clarity you've brought to this facet of the conversation. From a tactical standpoint, I want to loop in the stakeholders to ensure they are also in sync with the continued usage of buzzwords.
If you run into any blockers, please circle back.
Cheers!
I think we should circle back and close the loop on that one later...
Corporate buzzwords are cargo cult behavior. Jargon and industry-specific terms can be helpful for accurately communicating precise or nuanced ideas, but generic buzzwords are just people who try to sound professional or smart by mimicking the people they've seen in those roles.
Just asking "what's my role in the meeting" is a simple way to get to the point, and isn't impolite or unprofessional.
Some higher ups can get pissy at slaves that correctly guess that their actual work is more important than listening to inane bullshit. I know, it shows that said higher ups are unprofessional, but meritocracy is a lie anyway.
Sure, but the overall intent holds true. Not just in professional settings, it's important to have the skill to reframe a negative comment into a positive one.
This is probably what I would say:
It sounds like you've got everything you need for the meeting. Would it still make sense for me to attend?
If that's the case, then I think I'd be more useful handling some other tasks in the meantime. Please keep me updated on the outcome of the meeting
'Do you really need me? I still have a lot on my desk and would like to get to work on it, if you don't mind.'
Never did anyone have an issue with that, including my boss.
The beauty of this is its not using brainrot LinkedIn language
Such corpo bullshit, do it the Scandinavian way, I don't think this meeting is for me, have a good meeting though. Done and done
Don't you want to empower the business and yourself by attending the meetings here? Why complicate the process by excluding yourself from the conversation.
Even saying that made me feel sick.
Fluent in corporate speech 101.
Seriously is there a class I can take, because it's like I'm speaking an alternate language at work and no one there understands what I'm saying
You are asking the wrong dude here. I failed at corporate speech, never understood their art of assimilation. It is all about not offending anyone, overstepping, never throwing anyone under the bus, especially higher management, and yet dodging bullets coming your way. It is also the biggest waste of time, usually. Got to give the upper management, the glorified babysitters, something to do.
Fluent companyspeech
It's just being highly effective at applying peer to peer team interaction synergistics skills.
I told my team to decline meetings they don't think they should be in. If they're really needed, they can be added - everyone is supposed to be available/reachable during the day anyway. I told them that this includes meetings that I invite them to.
Had a manager saying that. Declined meeting. Manager: Pikachu-face.
Had to attend anyways ofc. Wasted my time 100% + the time the manager "explained" why I couldn't just decline a meeting.
Yeah, that's not cool at all. Gotta mean it if you're gonna say it.
There's one weekly meeting that I'm in where my only contribution is to notice when we're out of stuff to discuss but no one is wrapping up. I unmute and ask, "Ok, so can we wrap?"
I don't understand why six other people just sit there saying nothing without ending it. I've got other shit to do. Don't they?
They are all afraid the manager will perceive them negatively for it, also why doesn't your team lead / manager take the call about wrapping up the meeting
You don't really want to tell your boss "I don't add value!".
If you are hired to sit at meetings, not adding value to them is indeed a very severe issue.
Depends also if they include you so they don’t make dumb decisions. If they are capable of doing stuff on their own great. If they are habitually doing shit without asking you even just a question (and make every little thing into a meeting which is about just managing their decision making) it’s kind of always mandatory just to be there to save them from themselves and from taking decisions away from you.
I don’t know why it’s so hard to say ‘hey can we just grab you for a moment’ instead of and either or hour long meeting making you sit through it just to get to you about something either mildly so unimportant you didnt need you or they destroy the project
Eh, useless meetings are great for timesheet filler while playing Pokemon Go.
Sometimes my wife says she doesn't like so much downtime at work. I understand her frustration, but I don't empathize.
Pay me to slack off, that's the life.
When I first started my job, I was really anxious about being seen as "slacking off" whenever there was downtime (which is pretty frequent and can range from 10 minutes to two hours). That made it pretty exhausting, which in turn fed the anxiety because "how can doing nothing wear you out?"
Luckily my colleagues and leads were great people and helped me get more comfortable with it, and I'm really grateful for that.
I had a situation like this where I'd like to be involved in the meeting that I was requested and they thought I was required to be in. I'm a just barely above entry level employee and was told by my supervisor that I should not be attending the meetings anyhow the request is coming from project managers.
Finally get pinged in a meeting chat asking where I was and told them I was informed I should not be attending these moving forward. The project manager asked if this input came from a director that is 5 levels above me. I told them no, it came from my supervisor, if you need me, I will attend the meeting however I'm not sure if my input would be the information you are looking for.
2 months later, still getting required meeting invites but told by my supervisor to not accept it.
#Corpo-Pro-Tips
I think "What is the purpose of this meeting and why am I being included" is almost polite as-is, but "why am I being included" sounds a little rude. Maybe "what is the purpose of this meeting and is my presence needed?" Maybe "beneficial" instead of "needed" depending on who exactly you're emailing.
If you ask the person who invited you to a meeting "is my presence beneficial" they're going to answer "yes". That's why they invited you.
The purpose is to figure out whether your presence is actually needed, not whether they think it is.
I do like a lot of your ideas though, I might suggest:
"What is this meeting about? I'm trying to figure out if my presence would be beneficial."
That way you are the determinant of whether your presence is necessary, and the other person has to articulate what the actual benefit would be as opposed to just saying "yes".
Talk to your manager.
Shortly after I was hired, my manager told me I should feel free to decline any meeting that didn't seem useful, or that if it was preventing me from getting "real" work done.
Or just ask the person organizing the meeting.
"I saw you added me to a meeting tomorrow. Can you provide a bit of context so I can come prepared?"
do you need my presence here
Sounds like you were summoned by ouija board.
Are you not entertained?
Y'all are invited to optional meetings??? Lol
I usually join the meeting and start asking a lots of questions and clarifications because I don't know what the stuff is about. After that, the amount of useless meeting requests drops like a rock.
Corpospeak. Never a clearer way to be sure that someone or something doesn’t give a fuck about you as a human being.
Tf am I doing here?
you want me on the call, I'm there.
don't complain when I don't deliver on goals though.
Or just preemptively reply with the second bit.
Yeah be sure to say you won’t be a value-add. That’s a great way to not get laid off.
If you don’t know what’s going on, but they make you go to the meeting, just go to the meeting and stfu.
If you do know what’s going on, and they make you go to the meeting, and it’s a bullshit meeting, then you can tell them to fuck off.
Something something avocado toast. Get off my lawn.
What do I need prepare for my contribution in this meeting? Nothing. Ok I'll watch the recoding.
