You're viewing a single thread.
They are the one wearing a band T-shirt, advertising that they are fan. They opened themselves up to a conversation about it, and bringing up the person's relationship experience is 100% irrelevant.
Asking someone to name 5 women who trust them, and then challenging those choices as wrong, when the subject and the people they are naming are totally unknown, isn't winning the argument.
This is why women get accused of being unfair debaters.
They opened themselves up to a conversation about it,
If the question to "name 5 songs" is an attempt at opening up a conversation, it's a questionable strategy. You're not making conversation, you're assigning someone a test. Forcing a set list provides plenty of opportunity for the answers to be scrutinized and possibly used as justification to doubt the woman's authenticity. It's a commonly used gate-keeping tactic that most, if not all women and AFAB have/had used against them at some point.
A friendly acknowledgement of a shared interest would work far better, like going, "Oh, I love that band! Did you go to their last concert?" Even, "What's your favorite song?" works, because the problem isn't asking a question, but the immediate assignment of work along with guaranteed judgement regardless of the answer.
Most people probably don't enjoy being subjected to pop quizzes, and this kind of question feels like being given a pop quiz with the sole reward for winning being "to be accepted by you." Even if one's intent is truly innocent, when someone's idea of "conversation" is "subject the other person to random tests," other people might avoid interacting with that person.
Valid, which is why one of my responses said that how you ask is a big part of the issue. My question is just "Have you ever listened to that album?," and I always try to ask it in a friendly manner, not confrontational. at least 75% of the time, the answer is "No."
A conversation and challenging someone are two different things. They didn't open up a conversation, they challenged the person with the T-shirts interest. They deserve to be challenged back, especially in a way that calls attention to the fact that they are abbrasive, intolerable, or worse.
My opening question is always: "Have you listened to that album?" You can take that as a challenge, or as an opening to a conversation. I suppose the tone used while asking is the most factor. I always ask it in a friendly manner.
Have you listened to yourself speak? The time, effort, and cost of listening to an album are nowhere near the time, effort, and cost of choosing and purchasing a shirt. Unless the album came out 3 days ago and isn't easily available online yet that question sounds ... unpleasant.
Every college student I've ever known has a Spotify account, and the classic rock albums that are usually on T-shirts are easily available on Spotify.
What? You wear shirt with stuff on it that you don't want to talk about? That's weird
A "no, I just like the art" is a valid response. But fighting strawman that probably are very rare irl and being mean to people who just want to talk isn't
Some people just don't want to have a stranger come up and initiate a conversation with them out of the blue, even if it might be about a shared interest
This is why women get accused of being unfair debaters.
You don't have to be "fair" when some rando starts debating you out of nowhere, same way you don't have to do a proper duel when someone asks
Funny how I never have an issue of women being “unfair” to me yet you constantly do. I wonder what the difference between us is?
Reading comprehension is required.
I didn't say I have an issue with women being unfair to me. I said they often get accused of debating unfairly, and they do. Listen to a few stand-up comedians, and you'll hear plenty of jokes about how difficult it is to argue with women. Chris Rock has a famous monologue about women being impossible to argue with because they don't feel that their arguments have to make sense.
Don't blame me personally for a widely held societal belief.
Lol. Wait. Your argument is "women are bad at debating" and the source you cite for that is stand-up comedians?
Oh, I've gotta turn on the popcorn maker for this.
Comics/ Satirists have always been a mirror of society - Swift, Voltaire, Will Rogers, Mark Twain, George Carlin, etc. They are the people who say out loud what everyone else is thinking.
Simply dismissing an argument as silly without explaining why is another poor debate technique.
Just for fun: was John Kramer saying out loud what everyone else was thinking when he shouted the n-word 40 times?
I have no idea what you are talking about about.
That's okay, it wasn't for you.
Something one or multiple people merely think does not reveal any underlying truths. To try to find evidence, one might start from an observation and test a hypothesis. Comedians and pop culture as a whole might mirror society's ideological mores in some ways, but that alone isn't sufficient evidence that women are disproportionately intellectually dishonest or inferior.
I never said "women are disproportionately intellectually dishonest or inferior," YOU put those words in my mouth. I don't feel that way, and would never endorse anything about that statement.
But it is no secret to any man who has had long-term relationships with women, that they often argue without rules of any kind, and I simply pointed out that it's not just me making that obvious observation, but it is an entire sub-genre of comedy. Obviously, it is a shared societal experience, and my personal observation has been that it isn't associated with any particular culture.
As I've gotten older, and don't argue much because I literally don't care enough about anything to argue about it, I have realized that the strategy of simultaneously combining strawmen, shifting goal posts, misunderstood polls, internet propaganda, click bait headlines, etc., is designed to make me so frustrated and flustered that I pop my cork, and she wins by default.
that it isn't associated with any particular culture.
Ohh, so women are genetically illogical. I understand.
So, do you see a way out of this trap, or is humanity cursed to suffer them forever?
Not what I said, so proving my point, thanks.
Reading comprehension is required.
You're the one who thinks "name five of their songs" is "starting a conversation".
Again, I've never said that, and would consider that a poor challenge. I've listened to DSOTM probably hundreds of times, but I'm not sure I could name 5 songs from it off the top of my head (Money, Time, Breathe, Great Gig in the Sky, um...). That's why I would never ask that question. I ask: "Have you ever listened to that album?" If they had, follow up questions would be what did you think of it, what do you like/dislike about it? Have you heard other PF albums? What made you listen to this one? What do you like about the band? Have you ever seen them live? Etc.
I asked a girl about her Metallica shirt once, and she responded by saying that she LOVED Metallica, and knew every album well. I asked why, and she said her dad loved them, and always played them in the car. I'm not a Metallica fan, but I loved her enthusiasm and story. That was a great conversation, and what I am aiming for when I ask about someone's T-shirt.
People gotta stop being so defensive. Even when someone asks a question in a confrontational manner, I prefer to answer it in a positive manner, and try to turn the conversation around into a constructive experience.
So maybe try reading the original post. This is not about someone asking "Hi, have you heard the album?"
You're making up a strawman to be upset about.
Yea, I was unsure if I was being too hard on you based on one comment, but your double-down absolutely proved me correct.
You have some prejudiced views about women that you need to work out.
Chris Rock and other comedians' jokes are not peer-reviewed studies or discourse analyses about how women debate intellectually.
-
Probably so, but it's too late for me, and overall I like women a lot. I actually prefer women bosses, generally.
-
So she asked for it?
I have never heard of women being stereotyped as unfair debaters.
So? I have.
Your personal anecdote doesn't mean that it's common.
As does yours
Well, I haven't either. I guess it's 2 against 1 now.
Debate? What debate? I thought this was just a hypothetical situtation casually talking about bands, which turns into something condescending. That's not really a debate situation. Why must we treat it as a Socratic dialogue or a legal proceeding?
But that nonsequitur sure is a sweeping generalization about how you feel about about women debaters. Ironic considering you stated you don't like sweeping generalizations, real or imagined, in your other comment.
Well, the discussion did move into whether the response to the guy's question was a fair one.
The better response would have been, "I don't know, I don't think of them in terms of songs, I think of their albums. Of all of their albums, this is the one I like the best. It's got "XXX," it's my favorite song by them."
That's an answer that would make him sound like the dickhead that he is, instead of making you sound like a savagely defensive female.
Of course, it only works if you do know the album on your shirt, and you do know one song off of it. Otherwise, I'm kind of in the "don't wear T-shirts of bands you don't listen to" camp. It's on your chest for the entire world to see and JUDGE YOU FOR IT, at least pull it up on Spotify and give it a spin.
Give it a rest. You’re not a woman and you’re failing to see the likely negative scenario this kind of question would arise in, so there’s no need to explain what a better response would be.
If you’ve opened a conversation through a band shirt and you weren’t an asshole, good for you. Then the post isn’t about you and there really isn’t a reason to be so defensive.
Turns out, if you’re not an asshole then you’ll likely not be treated like one. And if you still are, it’s okay — it’s likely not personal. Still no reason to get super defensive and cry that it’s “not all men” and that “all women are taught not to trust any man.”
Btw, “savagely defensive female” comes across terribly.
Valid, except I chose the words "savagely defensive female" carefully, and posted them fully understanding the impact those words would have. But I felt it was important to demonstrate how that response would be viewed by nearly every man. I fully understand how cautious women have to be around men, but it is important for women to understand how responses like this would be viewed.
There is so much division in America (and the World), I wish men and women could at least try to get along better, but it only seems to be getting worse, because EVERYONE is on the defensive when dealing with the opposite sex. Look, we all want the same thing: to get laid. It's literally what life is all about. Can't we try to be cool about it, on both sides?
You don’t get it.
but it is important for women to understand how responses like this would be viewed.
That she's cool and capable of standing up for herself? I'd much rather hang out with her than the dickhead that asked her the question.
I feel like when it comes to cultural things like bands the wearer should be at least aware and supporting of the band. Imagine if I wore a MAGA cap, because I thought it looked cool but didn’t know anything about it.
Totally agree. I recently saw a guy with a shirt that said "Don't wear T-shirts of bands you don't listen to."
MAGA is recent and morally negative, AC/DC is old and morally neutral.
I can not imagine caring about someone not knowing the Alice in Chains on their shirt as much as the nazi on their hat.
The point is they don’t know what the band stands for. If they’re conservative they shouldn’t be wearing a rage against the machine shirt