Had a take about Supergiant Games that recieved a lot of pushback fromy two longest running best friends.

I trust them to do what they want. I hope they don't do a hades 3, at least anytime soon, but 2 flowed from 1 the same as 1 flowed from pyre. Bastion and Transistor are amazing, but I'm not even convinced either warrants a sequel. I would love more games like them though. In general I wish more indie devs started with something like those games

What I want Supergiant to do is.... whatever the fuck they want.

Yeah I say let them cook. Their "worst" game is Pyre (iirc it really didn't sell well) and it's still a very good game.
- I really wanted to like it more because they made some really cool choices in the design of it. I can see why it didn't sell well, but it should have at least been more influential

I strongly disagree on their roguelite "bug" being something they need to drop.

Bastion didn't land for me, so I didn't play it, but Transistor would have shined as a roguelite. Its combat system is far too complex, and has potential for so much more, than what can be explored in one or two playthroughs.

The same goes for Cloudbank as a narrative setting.

Transistor, but with Hades' gameplay loop and storytelling style would be insane. It already felt like a roguelite, but without a gameplay or narrative reason to go in for multiple runs.

Supergiant hasn't cought a roguelite bug... They've found the perfect narrative and game format to match the gameplay systems and worlds they like to create.

Bastion is an absolute stinker of a game.

It's completely pedestrian, and there are so many bad design decisions it's hard to even take it seriously.

It's a game where marketing really did its job because the game could never carry itself based on its presentation or mechanics.
- It was really groundbreaking to have the narrator react to what you were doing, in a "Half-Life feels like a real world that you inhabit" way. The way the music was woven into the game was also amazing, and the art! There's a reason it put them on the map.
  
  I didn't like the gameplay all that much though and the world building didn't make too much sense to me. These parts have aged the most poorly. But it was way better than just marketing.

I agree, but mostly because I dislike roguelikes. They get too repetitive and turn into a slog, and the success of your runs is often entirely dependent on which items you find.

I’d much rather have a tight, concise game with handmade maps. IME, roguelikes just pull the old NES/SNES trick of “well we can’t fit more data on the game cart, so just make the game harder to force players to replay it over and over again. That will artificially inflate the game length.”

Bastion and Transistor don’t need sequels, but I do wish they’d stop with the roguelikes.

None of those games need sequels, and neither did Hades. I get why they did, because it was the first time they weren't veering on bankruptcy and could use a bigger safety net, but doubling down on this lack of creativity is hardly what I expect from Supergiant.

I can understand what you're saying with none of them needing sequels. Invaded that definition yeah sure none of them need them. But I would very much want a sequel to bastion and transistor. And if that puts me in the minority as far as that's concerned I'm okay with that. I'm not going to boycott their team because they don't make a sequel by any means.

Why would anyone have that strong a view about what you said...? I'm not clamouring for sequels particularly for those games, though I'd love more games like them. Then again, whatever gets me more beautiful soundtracks from Darren Korb.

Because that first sentence sounds like a diss on Hades.

I loved Bastion and Transistor and wished for sequels for both. But SG clearly seemed to prefer to not make sequels for its games all these years; to my knowledge, it has never made one. I’m not sure what or who changed at the company, but Hades 2 is an anomaly.

Has anyone interviewed someone at SG to ask sequel questions? If not, maybe someone will once H2 gets closer to officially shipping.

I honestly preferred no sequls, everytime something new. I haven't played pyre and hades 2. While I liked hades, I was a bit sad when I heard hades 2, instead of something new.

I'm not an expert, but money (sales) is probably the reason. How many of their previous games sold vs Hades.

Also, maybe it's a bit cynnical to think of it this way, but hades 2 would require much less effort compared to making something new and it will churn sales as the first one has been a success. Additionally, they probably already had good idea and materials for additions to hades. So why not make hades 2 out of them. Maybe after that they will work on something new.
- There can be a tricky balance between building sequels or something new. Sometimes there is more you can do in a world, and people enjoy returning to worlds when there is good reason to.
  
  I think the recent Doom reboot trilogy is a masterclass example. Not everyone enjoys each game, people often have different favorites. But the point is they’re all Doom and yet id Software did something unique with each one. New mechanics, new ways to play, pushing boundaries of what came before.
  
  Of course, with Greek mythology, there is plenty more source material to explore and build on in a setting like Hades. They certainly hit a great formula to do it, and The People® were clamoring for it. But with SG’s established preferences for going after new ideas instead of sequels, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them do something else after Hades 2. Or who knows, maybe they’ll be able to grow enough to work on multiple games at once. That could come with its own challenges, but plenty of studios have done it.

IIRC they (or at least their design lead) explicitly stated that since the founders were Diablo fans, something like Hades was basically their dream.(And imo you can already see some of that in Bastion and Transistor so I don't think it was PR talk) So it's not surprising they'd go for a sequel given how well it was received. But I'm sure they'll stop soon enough, they don't seem to be the kind of studio that is in it for the money and I'm sure Hades and Hades 2 are giving them more than enough money to take creative risks in the future.

I never finished bastion but I really liked it. I should replay it

You really should.

Hades did straight numbers, not a shocker they'd go for another. Couldn't see Transistor or Bastion getting sequels, (Or Pyre but... lol Pyre.) and more importantly, I'd rather they tell new stories.

As a long time SGG fan i agree. Personally im sad we're getting a hades 2.

Bastion and Transistor absolutely don't need sequels though

I think I'm just getting sick of rogue likes. It seems there is another one being pushed every time I open steam. I find them all way too similar and frankly the loop of roguelikes is annoying to me. So, I would like to see them develop something else, I don't see it happening.

Hades was good. Rogue legacy was good. Dead cells was good. Brotato was good. Vampire survivors was good. Wizard of legend was good. Star of Providence was good. After those, though, I hit a wall. So, overall I agree. I wish the industry would move away from the genre, but it's not happening anytime soon.

I play a lot of roguelikes because I rarely have the time for a multiple hour gaming session anymore, and I can get a complete start to finish game in with a roguelike in 30-60 minutes. I think that may be part of the popularity.

I've played all the ones you mentioned, my recent vices are Magicraft & Star Vader's, both on steam. Slay the Spire & The Binding of Isaac are two I always come back to during my "what should I play?" moments.
- Yeah. The shorter game sessions are what drew me in initially. Tie that with handheld gaming and it's just a perfect combo of quick play convenience. I'm probably just hitting burn out and need a break.
  
  Slay the spire is another good one I forgot about. I played it heavy on the switch back when it was released.

Be careful what you wish for, they could start making Vampire Survivor likes!

I enjoyed Bastion and Transistor.

I also preferred Hades to either.

I have the exact same take, and the exact same experience with my friend group. I love supergiant games. Anything they touch is solid gold imo. I've always said that Hades is an amazing game, it's just supergiant's worst game.

Personally, I think for me, it comes down to the setting. Bastion, Transistor and Pyre all had amazing, unique settings that made me as a player want to learn and explore everything I could. And again, Hades does an amazing job of painting the setting and fleshing out the characters, but it's kinda just Greek mythology, which has been done before and I personally find it less interesting.

To restate, Hades is an amazing game, just imo it's supergiants worst game.

Wouldn’t pyre be the worst by sales numbers? I think your bias against roguelike’s is showing here.

Hades is massively popular and well liked by a lot of people.
- I love roguelikes, probably one of my favorite genres, so much so that I started playing rogue for a while to see what the OG was like.
  
  And by sales numbers, 100% Pyre would be their worst game, but I'm far past judging a games content by its sales at this point.
  
  And it's easy to see why Hades is loved by so many, it's a great game! Just definitely my least favorite of all of Supergiant's stuff.
Agreed.

IDK why just until now it strikes me that Supergiant Games are the same dudes that created Hades and Bastion lol.

tbh, I loved SuperGiant's themes and aesthetics, but not their gameplay. So often early games of Bastion and Transistor felt squishy, or like I was playing underwater - the response loop from button push to effect on screen seemed laggy. Tried both on various platforms, never really got past that feeling. lovely soundtracks tho

Bastion is a 6/10 beat-em-up with 10/10 art, music, and voice acting. I enjoyed that game a lot (and still listen to the soundtrack on road trips), but boy does the atmosphere carry the weight of an otherwise average game.

Pretty forgivable since it was their first effort. Hades feels nice and crisp while keeping all the other points strong, too.

Your friends are wrong. I completely agree with you. Bastion was amazing and I would love to see a follow up or a new ip that builds upon it without the roguelite genre.

Bastion was just not my cup of tea. Somehow the fighting felt too chaotic for me. I mean, it felt like it was just button mashing, no matter how much I tried to have some tactic for it.

Not saying it is a bad game, I can see why people like it. But from that point of view, no, I don't need another Bastion.
- And to be honest I had the same feeling when I played Hades. I felt more like I was dependent upon getting certain modifiers and weapons together otherwise I just was not going to make any progress. And I don't think that's a critique of the game itself it's 100% in my abilities to play that sort of game. And from a personal taste standpoint my personal taste go towards bastion and transistor.

To be honest, I think they only made a sequel to Hades because it was so popular. I actually quite like that they create new universes every game. I also like the core gameplay of Pyre (not so much the mini-games) unlike most people. It sort of feels like Ballmasterz turned into a super cereal game to me. It probably inspired the show, which ever came first.

I watched this video a while back. Apparently, they were looking to develop a universe that they could make a sequel in. They ended up with Hades.
- I sadly have little interest in watching things about Hades as because I am so burnt out from asking for accessibility assistance (I actually think I did it multiple times in case they didn't catch it) and I am just frustrated with them as a whole and this post reignited it. But I am glad that they got what they wanted because Greek mythology is expansive. I think someone else will be happy about it. I just think I realized I feel relatively "done" with the company as a whole =/!

Bastion, Transistor, and Pyre 100% do not need a sequel. They are stories about the end of the world and are beautiful in how self contained they are.

I am not the biggest on the rougelike mechanics but... I would be lying if I said that Hades didn't repeatedly break me with the way it was used to convey Zagreus's relationship with the other characters.

spoiler

Hades just putting down his weapon and letting you pass is easily one of my top ten of all time gaming moments.

I am a bit skeptical on Hades 2. Then I remembered I was skeptical on Hades 1. As far as I am concerned, Supergiant (and Greg Kasavin) can do no wrong.

I understand the skepticism, but Hades 2 is pretty fantastic, in my opinion. It does a lot to distinguish itself while still retaining what made the first one fun. I've got a little less than 200 hours in both of them.

If I'm being honest, before Hades, I wasn't sure how much of a future Supergiant had in game dev. They clearly have talent for making beautiful looking worlds with great soundtracks and writing, but their gameplay was not exceptional for the genres they dabbled in. They didn't try to iterate either, flitting from genre to genre.

Hades was the result of them taking what they learned from Bastion and Pyre and applying it to a trend. They really nailed the gameplay this time. I think Hades 2 is even better, and I suspect it will be again be a GOTY contender when it comes out.

That said, I think they could very well end up branching out again from roguelites after this.

Roguelite/likes are shit. Add cards to it and I'd prefer to kill myself. If I want to play RL I play adom.

I didn't move Bastion or Transistor, they never clicked for me but I loved Hades.

(Pyre)

What is wrong with it? A quick Google Search leads me to a pretty good game based on the reviews.

Sparse gameplay, tied together with lots and lots of implied worldbuilding in a lore book that contains most of the story. The gameplay was okay when you got to it, but there was far too much written story locked up, instead of "show, don't tell".

Also, the game wants you to finish six tournaments before you get any sort of decent ending.
- Huh, interesting. I finished one tournament, and I felt like that was the end. I didn't realize there was more story if you kept going.
  
  I really liked the story and interactive novel parts of it. The sports ball part was alright as variety, but the rest of the game was the best part.
Pyre is more like a visual novel with some gameplay here and there. Now I don't mind story heavy games but towards the end I found myself just clicking through the absolute ton of dialogue there was. Vastly preferred Bastion and Transistor which almost never interrupted the gameplay but were still able to tell amazing stories.

I think I'm kind of done with Supergiant regardless. In both Bastion and Transistor, it felt like they had two out of three components to their gameplay loop but were missing something to prevent it from feeling repetitive; despite short runtimes, both very much did feel repetitive. I didn't even try Pyre, and I have little faith it would be for me. I do love roguelikes and can enjoy -lites from time to time as well, and Hades got a lot of buzz. However, I actually quite disliked worlds 3 and 4, and the level generation is among the worst I've seen in the genre. I get the sense that Hades is probably most responsible for people who claim they want "handcrafted levels" as opposed to procedural generation, because perhaps those people haven't seen it done well if they've only ever played Hades, a game with level generation so monotonous that the voice actor will call out a room we all recognize.

To be honest, I get what you're saying here although I've played all their games. I think of the bunch I disliked Bastion the most. It felt like an empty PSX game. I liked Transistor, but the catch is that it needed to be played pretty much surrounding their pause-the-battle technique which was okay but it really kind of sucks to me whenever I have any game use this technique. I would have much rather it had been a full turn-based game. I like turn-based games though. There is some viking game that plays like a janky-table top where it's semi-turnbased and it was absolutely awful for it.

Mind you, I like Transistor due to its story. Which I think is the same reason why I liked Pyre. The setting, it was quite nice and if I could remove the mini-games from the game I would. Hades, I liked because they took characters the size of tic-tacs and turned them into three-dimensional beings. That was quite nice. They played on a lot of anime tropes. The gameplay was good, but it was a bit too challenging for me. I dropped it relatively early due to this. I pretty much sit in the same camp now. I wondered if maybe I had aged out of their target audience but I will probably never play one of their games again. It's just not my bag.
- Hades was really hard for me too, and I played upwards of 100+ runs before beating [redacted], and another bunch before finally turning on God mode, where I think I got up to about 20% damage reduction before it stabilized.
  
  At this point I want to push the story forward (I'm in the epilogue) but I've already played so much I need to wait more for the battling to be fun again.

different people like different things, sounds like your friends like rougish games.

I enjoyed bastion, it was probably my favorite game of its year. I don't care enough about hades to even give it the time of day, no matter how hot they made zagreus. With few exceptions, I don't really like rougish games. The few that I do like I'd rather they be long form rpgs so that I can have a build long enough to enjoy it for a while.

That said, studios should be allowed to make the games they want to make. Forcing them to do art against their will results in bad art.

Just for a bit of clarification I'm not talking about forcing them to do anything This is simply from a consumer standpoint, my wish I guess.

All 4 games are great. And I do enjoy the one and done deal of the first 2. I don't mind finishing a game in a few hours. If anything, that's actually a bonus nowadays. Most games I stop halfway and never finish.

However, if you were to just focus on finishing the main story and consider that enough, I think you could finish Hades just as quickly. So to me Hades is just the same kind of game but with more replayability.