Forced E-Waste PCs And The Case Of Windows 11’s Trusted Platform
Forced E-Waste PCs And The Case Of Windows 11’s Trusted Platform
Until the release of Windows 11, the upgrade proposition for Windows operating systems was rather straightforward: you considered whether the current version of Windows on your system still fulfill…
The article focuses a lot on the security of the boot process, but there's no reason the TPM can't be used for DRM as well (as an example, https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5283799). It's correct when it points out the locked down nature of consoles and phones.
We could conceivably be in for a future where Windows refuses to run code that's not validated even after the OS boots. Or where it sees pirated software on the system and refuses to function in some manner until the software is removed/corrected to its liking.
There are so many possibilities here and all of them are bad.
- Forced online accounts so Microsoft always knows when/where you login
- Stored encryption keys so Microsoft could theoretically provide access to any computer the government requests
- Telemetry already reporting god only knows what metrics about what and how you use your software
- Forced AI that literally watches everything you do on your screen storing it in a known location making for a valuable target and also potentially/likely being used to create more telemetry and insights into your habits
- Eventual full control over your hardware by enforcing "trusted platform" restrictions
It's so fucking brazen I'm gobsmacked. As an elder Millennial, I get it, I can already hear most of you tallying in your head if having to care about your OS is gonna be the final straw . This is no longer a nerdy request to please use Linux, this is a five alarm fire. Add to all this how much Microsoft is in bed with the US government and potential issues with all that on the horizon and I really, truly believe it's time to switch, for your own good.
Please. Even if you're not going to run out and install Linux tomorrow, you need to start mentally preparing yourself for the inevitability of the task. Get yourself accustomed to the idea and when you're ready to dip your toes in, just know how many resources are out there for you.
And to the Linux community out there, there are going to be a lot of newcomers who don't have the technical skills to undertake this and enjoy/appreciate this in the same way as you do. Be kind to them, the need for us to support each other has never been greater. Please.
DRM is already the primary purpose of trusted compute if you read shareholder meeting transcripts; security is a marketing side effect.
Ya boy Richard Stallman agrees and has been saying this for years (although this article is more recentish), https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html
“Treacherous computing” is a more appropriate name, because the plan is designed to make sure your computer will systematically disobey you. In fact, it is designed to stop your computer from functioning as a general-purpose computer. Every operation may require explicit permission.
As of 2022, the TPM2, a new “Trusted Platform Module”, really does support remote attestation and can support DRM. The threat I warned about in 2002 has become terrifyingly real.
Actual, honest to god reasons to upgrade to Windows 11 are already vague and questionable. Your average user probably doesn't even see any particular reason and only perceives the nuisance of it. But it's hard to fully close your iron fist around a platform when TPM enablement is so sparse in the consumer space. So what better way to do it than a mandatory OS upgrade with it as a system requirement and assure all (or a vast majority of) systems align at once?
Of course there are ways for stubborn users to skirt those requirements, but that misses the primary point of Trusted Computing. While the OS may baseline function to some degree, there's no telling what functionality may be crippled by not being in a trusted state. EDIT: For example, this could easily tie into games with anti-cheat such that they will refuse to run on Windows 11 unless TPM is enabled.
I don't know the future any better than anyone else, I'm just trying to read the winds at the moment. I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we've seen past iterations. But the pieces will be in place by then and it's only a matter of time before some greedy exec gives the word .....
I've been daily-driving Linux for over a decade at this point so you don't need to convince me, and I'll just spin up a Windows VM for things aren't picky about baremetal OS installs, but also don't play nice with WINE.
I can hear the ‘just use Linux/BSD/etc.’ crowd already clamoring in the comments, and will preface this by saying that although I use Linux and BSD on a nearly daily basis, I would not want to use it as my primary desktop system for too many reasons to go into here.
Still though.
🐧
This rings a little hollow to me. Most of the people I know that understand Linux can quickly summarize why they might not use it as their daily driver (eg staying on macOS for graphics/video or staying on Windows for desktop Word/Excel). If you can’t summarize that quickly, it really makes me wonder if you really understand it. I’m not trying to No True Scotsman my way around it; I really don’t understand.
The reasons I personally know are "I have to use an app for work, there is no interoperable alternative, I have no leverage to replace that entire ecosystem and it won't run with wine" and "It's a company-issued device where I have no rights to change anything anyway." Combined, they make the reason that my work Laptop runs Win11, but my private PC is Linux through and through. I'd like to be able to use said app on my private PC too, but if it doesn't, no big deal.
Right? I tried to switch my primary computer (framework laptop) to Linux earlier this year and ended up going back to windows after I had absolute nightmares with my type-c KVM. Coupled with performance issues while gaming (and the absolute hassle of having to force games to use my graphics card). Add in whatever random issues I was getting trying to remote into other windows machines on my domain (for CAD work). My day job is in software engineering/ programming, so I'm not exactly a stranger to digging through documentation and fixing computer issues, but spending time fixing my computer instead of using it got old pretty quick.
Perfectly happy with Linux in my HomeLab and on my steamdeck though!
Personally, I'm sticking with macOS as my primary OS until the point that Asahi solves DP alt mode and I can run two displays from it.
My 2014 Mac mini runs Mint, so I'm more than happy to dive in to Linux as my main.
I just switched to Linux mint as a HTPC and it works great! Wine and Bottles bridged most of the gaps in software availability.
Try winegui as well..
nice!
Ive personally used proton as well for the one program that I need in windows land. It works really well.
I would not want to use it [Linux or BSD] as my primary desktop system for too many reasons to go into here.
https://twitter.com/MayaPosch/status/1809311467545735654
The Linux kernel not having a stable driver ABI is why Linux will never amount to anything outside of some embedded and server applications.
--- Maya Posch, author of the submitted article
I guess maybe that's their reason.
never
That tweet must be some kind of joke, because I don't know what to make of the many people who use Linux outside of embedded and server applications. And it doesn't even have to be my hearsay because the Steam Deck is exactly such a device.
In fact, I have a USB audio interface which I use near daily on Linux that has no driver support in modern Windows, because the vendor only provided beta support for Windows 7 as that OS was releasing. By Windows 8 it was unsupported. So the journey of that device is XP->Stable, Vista->Stable, 7->Unstable, 8+-> Non-functioning. If the driver ABI were so stable, why does my device not work on Windows anymore?
what a bizare take to suggest hoping for ReactOS to mature before using Linux as daily driver. A lot of the current reactOS app compatibility depends on WINE implementation anyway.
ReactOS is a very fun project, but anyone expecting it to be a real useable OS is absolutely mad. It's been going for almost 30 years, and they're almost at the point of binary compatibility with Windows Server 2003...
Last I checked it didnt play very nicely in real hardware, and required running it in a VM
Fucking Christ, you have choices people. If windows won’t meet your needs anymore, USE SOMETHING ELSE! Why do these people pretend there are no alternatives to windows?!
There are no alternatives to Windows. You will join us. Embrace ☀️. Extend 🌈.Ȩ̷͙͙̺̰̦͊̏͜x̷̱̹̃t̶̡͉̍̋̌̿͗̈́͘í̴̡̼̱̫͚̺͙̉ň̶̛̮͠ģ̴̛̹̮͎̏̓u̷̢̢̜͊̆̈̉͐̑i̸̛̪͔̤̰͚̾͌̈̍͜ͅs̶̳̜͎͓͚̣̼̖͌̇̈́͊̌͋h̷͉̹̄͐̋̐͛🌚.
Think about all the people with computers that don't know about Linux.
You can argue all you want about TPM and its 'security'. I ALWAYS thought that forcing users to use TPM 2+ hardware is planned obsolescence and nothing/no one will convince me otherwise.
The only thing affected users can and should do is to leave that PoS of an 'operating system'.
I had a Windows 10 laptop that has a CPU not supported by Windows 11. It’s not e-waste, though. It just runs Ubuntu now.
Install Linux already
This is on top of potential tariffs which if enacted will make PC costs skyrocket. I feel like a lot of people are just going to skip the generation like they do with every other windows OS version. They will just keep windows 10 forever kinda like XP did back in the day.
I'm pretty hesitant to find the time to install and learn Linux but I'm VERY hesitant to upgrade to Win11. I'm having trouble understanding what the selling point for it is over Win10. I feel like it used to be clear and exciting to upgrade but they've managed to make this feel sort of dreadful.
There is no particular selling point. That's why they force it.
Well yeah, w11 has no selling point, that's why they're forcing you to switch by removing support by autumn 2025
Where’s Microsoft’s Chief Sustainability Officer on this one? Too busy looking the other way on Copilot’s massive energy usage?
Microsoft: BUT WE’RE THE MOST ECO CONSCIOUS COMPANY WE KNOW!!!
DON'T TURN ON DISPLAYING SECONDS IN THE TASKBAR BECAUSE THAT'LL USE MORE ENERGY!
You can’t say they’re not. The even have a Chief Sustainability Officer! /s
OK I’m sold…they are officially the most eco efficient and conscious company in the WORLD and bill gates is not about to garrote me agent 47 sty-
Debian user here. All people have a doorkey. Some people have an alarm system as well. Infosec is about ' what do you have and what do you know '. So in principle TPM is a defencible argument. You should absolutely bail from MS products for different reasons. Like privacy. Your PC isn't yours anymore. Your NPU will reduce THEIR costs. Etc.
Don't enter Linux thinking its a drop in replacement. Go slow and do 'ships in the night'. Move data over to the new ship. Start embracing OSS on windows, it'll be familiar when you finally bail. G luck.
It's not really a TPM problem, my Dell has TPM2.0 which is perfectly compatible with win11. My problem is the CPU (i5 6th gen) missing some stuff for modern device drivers or something, that is preventing me from upgrading win10 to win11.
Yes I dual boot MX Linux on it :)
I can't wait for the surge in cheap PCs available to buy and install Linux on. Please, Microsoft, lock down Windows more.
Because it's so hard to use Rufus and make a win 11 install that bypasses the tpm requirements.
having to use hacks to get an operating system installed shouldn't be needed.
requiring a Microsoft account to use Windows also shouldn't even have been considered.
That and having to manually upgrade CUs. It just doesn’t scale. It’s easier for most people to buy a new machine.
It's easier for most people to just continue using their current PC past the end of support.
I'm grateful to Microsoft for Windows 11 providing me a bunch of free machines to stick in my basement and put Linux on.
ROFL no. I once knew someone who got offered an upgrade from whatever to Windows 10, only for it to fail half way through because their CPU was some weird corner case that the OS thought it supported but when it was time to boot... didn't.
Also if you want to talk e-waste, look no further than Chromebooks.
Windows 11 has problems, this is hardly one of them.
Chromebooks sound good in theory but fall short because kids are great at breaking them and there is a lack of repairability.
There is also chromeos being kinda ass
Chromebooks and Apple products hitting EoL for sure.
It may be a bold of me to say, but I hold the controversial opinion that I don't really give a shit which computer OS you use. If you can use a mouse and keyboard to navigate a desktop environment then 🤙 you are ahead of the curve at this point.
The writer clearly understands that something isn’t adding up with Microsoft’s claims about TPM, but nowhere do they address the accusations that Microsoft plans to use it as DRM (and potentially spying).
Similarly, only supporting certain CPU’s is suspect as hell. Between all this and Recall, it really feels like the driving design focus behind Windows 11 was to build the best spying machine they could.
Little Brother is a novel about a future dystopia where copyright laws have been allowed free rein to destroy people's lives.
It's legislated that only "secure" hardware is allowed, but hardware is by definition fixed, which means that every time a vulnerability is found - which is inevitable - there is a hardware recall. So the black market is full of hardware which is proven to have jailbreaking vulnerabilities.
Just a glimpse of where all this "trusted", "secure" computing might lead.
As a short video I saw many years ago explained on the concept: "trust always depends on mutuality, and they already decided not to trust you, so why should you trust them?"
Edit: holy shit, it's 15 years old, and "anti rrusted computing video dutch voice over" (turns out the guy is German actually) was enough to find it: