For me it's both, I guess?
Before the bullshit threshold I'm calmly reading what the liberal says, and calmly explaining stuff like:
- why capitalism won't fix itself
- why it's a bad idea to give the Nazi a voice, Weimar Republic style
- why all this "my country" thing is inane, and why we should be identifying ourselves first and foremost as human beings
- why and how gender and sex are different things
But as the liberal keeps babbling, and enters the bullshit threshold, my attitude suddenly flips to something like "aaaah, cut off the crap! I already explained this, dammit. Do you need to be spoonfed basic [reading comprehension | reasoning]???"
I don't typically use the word "bootlicker" in English, but in Portuguese I do use "pelego" (kind of the same thing) a fair bit.
If you think you can actually radicalise liberals you probably haven't tried talking to them during an election year.
It's much easier to de-extremify (or even radicalise) a fascist than a liberal, and the reason why is pretty clear to me now - liberals are far, far more invested in the maintenance of the status quo than the rank-and-file fascist is.
"It's much easier to de-extremify (or even radicalise) a fascist than a liberal, and the reason why is pretty clear to me now - liberals are far, far more invested in the maintenance of the status quo than the rank-and-file fascist is."
This is super interesting to me, because it simultaneously challenges my assumptions while making intuitive sense. I don't have any experience trying to de-extremify a fascist, but what you describe feels plausible
There's a good reason why overtly fascist regimes rely on much, much more overt and direct forms of censorship than liberal ones - it is far easier to throw a spanner into the logic machinery.
The problem with liberals is that liberal propaganda starts making more and more sense the higher up in the working class' class structure you go - a well-to-do lawyer from an upper-working-class family is going to be far more invested in the capitalist status quo than a hot-dog salesperson who is struggling to pay the rent. The more invested somebody is in the status quo, the more their logic will shield them from critiques of said status quo. Where you sit is where you stand... like the German quote goes.
There's a distinct class thing going on here which we on the left has completely ignored - you can just hear it in the way liberals talk about people lower down the economic pecking order. Just see how upper-middle class folks talk about the "hillbillies" and "inbreds" that (supposedly) all voted for Trump.
This was on full display during the last election. Genocide is apparently okay now. Long as a black woman or senile old man enables it.
Every fascist is a fallen comrade the capitalists got to first with the wrong solution?
Horseshoe brainlessness aside, there are certainly quite a lot of the opposite, Marxist/anarchist scholars in America who ended up swerving hard right as they aged under Reaganism. It's pretty weird to me.
Every fascist is a fallen comrade the capitalists got to first with the wrong solution?
Not every one... there are lots of utterly irredeemable people in the fascist rank-and-file. And there's no point in trying to differentiate which is which when they are marching down the street.
There is one thing that we on the left needs to take cogniscance of. The (so-called) "liberal democracies" we exist under only allows for the existence of two distinct ideologies - liberalism and fascism. It is only logical that when the one fails, people will attempt the other.
I mean, horseshoe theory can be useful, if you look at it more as "status quo adherence vs dislike of the status quo." Whether you're on the left or the right, you agree that things right now are fucked and need to be fixed. From that stance, it's not surprising that you can break a Trumper's conditioning by turning their ire from the culture war to the oligarchs that puppeted them, but it's also not surprising that someone who was already against the status quo could fall for fascist propoganda.
Moussilini was an anarchist activist first. But yes, some fascists are fallen comrades, but others very much aren't. The ones who really aren't love to bait the left so we waste our time on them instead of others who are more dedicated to change than cruelty
You can't radicalize a liberal during the worst fucking time to radicalize a liberal. Libs have their hearts in the right place but believe in the system, fascists understand the system is fucked and take the worst possible position in response. Fascists can be converted reasonably quickly but are much easier to convert back. Liberals need you to convince them, and it'll be slow, and they'll resist and they'll probably stay where you leave them.
I don't want the people more committed to radicalism nearly as much as I want the people more committed to ethics.
You can’t radicalize a liberal during the worst fucking time to radicalize a liberal.
So when is the correct time to radicalise them? When they're asleep? You know, like they are as long as there's a lib in the Waffle House?
Libs have their hearts in the right place but believe in the system
How can your heart be in the right place if you believe in the status quo?
Fascists can be converted reasonably quickly
I said it was easier - not quick.
Liberals need you to convince them
They can't be convinced - and that's not just my opinion.
they’ll probably stay where you leave them.
I'm afraid not - liberals are perfectly easy to reel back in. The very function of liberalism is to co-opt radical ideas and make them subservient to the status quo - to play the political carrot as opposed to the political stick (the latter being what they keep fascists around for).
I want the people more committed to ethics.
How can you trust people's ethics when they can be so easily convinced of that which is utterly unethical?
Covering my edge with some off color comedy a la Robert Evans to get people on my side.
I dunno, kinda feels to me that liberalism has lost so the polite thing to do would be to give them a dose of reality that could very well save their lives
