Admins, we're about to have a really bad SPAM problem when Lemmy removes captcha support in v.0.18 - You ALL have a responsibility to communicate back to lemmy devs to try to stop it.
Look, we can debate the proper and private way to do Captchas all day, but if we remove the existing implementation we will be plunged into a world of hurt.
I run tucson.social - a tiny instance with barely any users and I find myself really ticked off at other Admin's abdication of duty when it comes to engaging with the developers.
For all the Fediverse discussion on this, where are the github issue comments? Where is our attempt to convince the devs in this.
No, seriously WHERE ARE THEY?
Oh, you think that just because an "Issue" exists to bring back Captchas is the best you can do?
NO it is not the best we can do, we need to be applying some pressure to the developers here and that requires EVERYONE to do their part.
The Devs can't make Lemmy an awesome place for us if us admins refuse to meaningfully engage with the project and provide feedback on crucial things like this.
The important part was that this was a decision to re-implement the old (if imperfect) solution in time for the upcoming release. mCaptcha and better techs are indeed the better solution, but at least we won't make ourselves more vulnerable at this critical juncture.
I find it reasonably amusing that many people's solutions seem to be "just defederate bro". As in if this conversation isn't happening on an instance which chose to defederate and received thousands of negative comments, from other instances, about this choice. We're still being harassed by users, all over our instance, who are unhappy with this.
I also find it amusing that many people say the solution is to build your own solution. Do you not want the fediverse to grow? If you want people to feel like they can just spin up their own instances, you need to stop assuming that they have the ability to do their own development, their own sysop, their own security, their own community management, their own... everything. People are not omniscient and the outright hostility towards someone asking for help, or surfacing their opinion on the matter isn't helping.
Without adequate tools, I don't see how most instances aren't driven towards simply existing on their own. Large instances need tools to deal with malicious actors, as they are the targets. The solution to defederate ignores the ability for people to just spin up new instances, to hijack existing small instances with less resources for security, sysops, to watch/manage their DB, to prevent malicious actors. I've already seen proposed solutions which involve scraping for all instances with less than a certain number of users to defederate on principle (inactive, too many users/post ratio). We're fighting spam bots right now, who are targeting instances which don't have captcha enabled.
Follow this thinking through to it's conclusion. If the solution is to defederate, and there are potentially unlimited attack vectors, what must a large instance do to not overburden its resources? Switch from blacklist to whitelist? Defederate from all small instances? How is this sustainable for the fediverse? If you want people to be interacting with each other, you need to provide the tools for this to happen in the presence of malicious actors. You can't just assume these malicious actors won't exist, or will just overcome any and all obstacles you throw in their way because you're smart enough to understand how to bypass captcha or other issues.
This isn't just an issue of whether captcha or some other anti-spam measure is used, it's an issue about the overall health of the fediverse. Please think wider about the impact before offering your 2c about how captchas are worthless or how you hate cloudflare. I don't think the user that posted this cares about the soapbox you want to preach from- they're looking for solutions.
You ALL have a responsibility to communicate back to lemmy devs to try to stop it.
No I don't. Stop trying to brigade people to an issue. If you have an issue with it... Fork the lemmy UI code and make your own. Or stay on pre 0.18 code.
It's one thing to bring awareness to the issue. It's another to demand that I take action on something that's not only a non-issue for me (and likely many other admins of instances) but that the devs don't have to support. You're not paying them... you're not their mother. You don't get to force them to do anything they don't want to do.
I'm just a hobbyist, but I have built a couple websites with a few hundred users.
A stupidly simple and effective option I've been using for several years now, is adding a dummy field to the application form. If you add an address field, and hide it with CSS, users won't see it and leave it blank. Bots on the other hand will see it and fill it in, because they always fill in everything. So any application that has an address can be automatically dropped. Or at least set aside for manual review.
I don't know how long such a simple trick will work on larger sites. But other options are possible.
I find myself really ticked off at other Admin’s abdication of duty when it comes to engaging with the developers.
Abdication of duty? Seriously? Do you think this is a job for people? Or that people that want a privacy related instance are "abdicating their duty" by not using captcha? Talk about hyperbole.
Run your instance how you want. Raise an issue with the devs if you want. Throw a fit if you want. But do not attempt to tell others how to run their instances or talk for other people and their "duties" when it comes to their own servers.
Nutomic has said they're open to restoring captchas, but it will require a fair amount of work to bring the 0.17 implementation into 0.18, which the currently don't have the bandwidth to implement.
They've also said they're open to PR's, so if someone really wants this feature they can open a PR for inclusion in the 0.18 release
NO it is not the best we can do, we need to be applying some pressure to the developers here and that requires EVERYONE to do their part.
I sure hope you're supporting them financially considering the demands you're making that require their time and labor.
Just enable admin approval and put a sensible registration rate limit. Works better without being a massive accessibility problem with dubious help against bots.
Captchas pretty much worthless. They're easily bypassed for basically free. You're better off putting your instance behind Cloudflare with their captcha
I know I'm veering kinda OT right now but speaking of captchas, they can also be used as a troll throttle by requiring captchas for posting if heuristics (think spamassassin) say that a user is being inflammatory, or falling for troll bait, or such. In case you understand German, have a video.
One specific feature of such a system is that it never absolutely denies users to post their comment as-is, but it may require them to solve multiple captchas (by claiming that the previous ones failed). That is, it bogs down to a simple psychological equation: Do I really care about being an assclown or feeding trolls enough to jump through those hoops. Especially the discouraging of troll feeding is highly effective as when trolls don't get engagement, they leave.
There's nothing stopping instance owners from incorporating their own security measures into their infrastructure as they see fit, such as a reverse proxy with a modern web application firewall, solutions such as Cloudflare and the free captcha capabilities they offer, or a combination of those and/or various other protective measures. If you're hosting your own Lemmy instance and exposing it to the public, and you don't understand what would be involved in the above examples or have no idea where to start, then you probably shouldn't be hosting a public Lemmy instance in the first place.
It's generally not a good idea to rely primarily on security to be baked into application code and call it a day. I'm not up to date on this news and all of the nuances yet, I'll look into it after I've posted this, but what I said above holds true regardless.
The responsibility of security of any publicly hosted web application or service rests squarely on the owner of the instance. It's up to you to secure your infrastructure, and there are very good and accepted best practice ways of doing that outside of application code. Something like losing baked in captcha in a web application should come as no big deal to those who have the appropriate level of knowledge to responsibly host their instance.
From what this seems to be about, it seems like a non-issue, unless you're someone who is relying on baked in security to cover for your lack of expertise in properly securing your instance and mitigating exploitation by bots yourself.
I'm not trying to demean anyone or sound holier than thou, but honestly, please don't rely on the devs for all of your security needs. There are ways to keep your instance secure that doesn't require their involvement, and that are best practice anyways. Please seek to educate yourself if this applies to you, and shore up the security of your own instances by way of the surrounding infrastructure.
Who is impacted? Everyone, it just instances upgrading to 0.18?
To be honest, your post doesn't really explain the current situation and impact It's a call to arms, but I have no idea how important it impactful it is.
Nope. This is a huge accessibility fail. Any instance that has captcha enabled is locking out anyone even slightly low vision. Everyone should be manually approving all applications. It keeps instances small, and ensures that the fediverse remains distributed. Once we start having a spam problem, we should all just be defederating every instance that offers open registration; make a script to scan for it, and update the blocklist. Nobody should be running that way. If you are, not only are you allowing spam, you're also probably allowing humans who are engaged in ban evasion and other bad things. All posts and comments that come from your instance are in some small part your responsibility. Be at least vaguely aware of who your users are. If you ban one, and you run open registration, how do you intend to make sure they're not the user you just banned, signing up with another email address? We're not big tech, so we don't have the kinds of tools (IP reputation lists, lists of VPN IP addresses, etc) to fight ban evasion in any kind of automated way.
While I am glad that they listened to the community. Everyone seemed to forget that you do not have to upgrade to the latest version. If the risks outweigh the benefits it's perfectly fine to stay at the last working version. There is also the possibility of backports and manual restoration of Captchas to get the features you want out of the later versions, if you have the development skillset to do so.
Why would devs remove something like this, at this time? Is it causing huge problems larger than the problems removing it would cause?
Makes me wonder if the devs are being paid to cripple Lemmy. This is where open source shines, we don't have to be held hostage to one product/service.
Just created the instance, now the spammers consumed all my email allowances today :( I just enabled CAPTCHA now, now I'm gonna wait till tomorrow how much this makes difference.