The Design is Very Human

This is an affront to nature

Looking at you Apple who has this option on by default.

This is actually pretty nice for touchpad. It's atrocious for scrollwheel though.
- And the magic mouse famously doesn't have a scroll wheel.
That's the first thing I fix when I set up a new Mac. Second thing is install BetterTouchTool. It lets you separate mouse and trackpad options, so the scroll wheel can be right and the trackpad backwards.

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- Nice me too. BTT and unclutter are my 2 critical Mac apps.
- Every few months I find a new BTT option to use on all my machines. Glad I purchased a lifetime license.
  
  Then again maybe I should have bought a subscription to keep him incentivized...
I hate how Apple unifies the mouse scroll and trackpad scroll interpretation, so I really love this project: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels
IIRC it's default in Windows and GNOME now too. It's a very strange default.
- Ok that’s even worse. I get that its to make it the same as when you push the screen up on your phone blah blah blah
  
  But they can all die and burn in hell
- it actually wasn't in this gnome install from last night, i just happened to run across the setting while looking for something else and made the meme. but i do seem to recall having to fix this before in years past.
- iirc windows uses classic direction and doesn’t have an option to change it to “natural”, meaning if you happened to get used to “natural” you have to do some janky registry thing to flip it
We use Apple Computers at work and when I go to someone's computer and realize that "natural scrolling" is on I can't help but judge them internally. Monsters.
Apple really only cares about you if you use the Magic Mouse which has a touch surface instead of a scroll wheel. It makes sense on the Magic Mouse but not on any other mouse
It took me awhile to figure that out.

I'd rather have an app with unnecessary options that nobody will ever use than one where some UX expert somewhere has decided the exact way I have to interact with the program.

You have been blacklisted from Apple's job board.
It is not about the wording, rather the having the option? No one would call that direction natural.
- Actually "natural" gets a pass from me. It doesn't feel right just because we got used to the opposite.
  
  Imagine a paper scroll on rolls. If you slide the top of the roll upwards - the paper goes up, and you can see more bottom content. The exact opposite happens when you scroll the mouse wheel with default config.
cries of apple fanbois on the distance
You will snooze for 9 minutes and you will like it.

There was a point in time where first person video games couldn't make their minds up and so games came with the option to have the y-axis inverted. Moving the mouse up would make the PC look down and vice versa.

It's because of joysticks and typical flight controls. Pushing forward goes down and pulling backwards is "pulling up".

Joysticks rules for a long time before the mouse came out. Home computers came standard with joystick ports.

Keyboard controls followed this convention and when mouse controls came into FPS games this was the first instinct... Moving the mouse "forward" looks down.
I hate when games DON'T have the option. In FPS non-inverted makes more sense, but in 3rd person games if I can't invert the camera if just feels unplayable.
Still a setting in any game worth caring about. I still prefer inverted in some cases.

Something like a mounted turret makes more sense inverted if you think of the mouse as an analog of your hand. Moving the handles down would move the tip of the barrel up. This analogy could easily extend to a two handed rifle or even a hand gun if your mental reference is the back of the gun, the handle
And as far as I'm concerned, all games should have their fucking y axis inverted as default so I don't have to keep turning it on.

If I have a camera on a tripod and I angle down...the view goes up. If I angle up, the view goes down. That's how it works. Or, I guess, how my mind works at least.

If someone grabbed my (steadily getting overgrown) hair from the back and yank down, my eyesight will move up. And vice versa.
- So therefore you invert the x axis for the same reasons too, right?
- It’s the same with left versus right, which nobody has yet talked about. It you angled my head right, my vision would be turning towards the left. Both of these need to be inverted.
- If I have a camera on a tripod and I angle down...the view goes up. If I angle up, the view goes down.
  
  I much prefer a simpler analogy: If I look up, I look up. If I look down, I look down.
- I personally invert the axes in third person scenarios because the camera moves around the character and i want to move the camera.
  
  Within first person shooters i don't because i move the camera/head to where i want to look.
- If you imagine the mouse strapped to the back of your head, then moving it up would tilt your head down, but it would also tilt you head left when you moved it right. So if you want to use realism (in this mouse behind the head scenario) as an argument for inversion then you would need left and right inverted too.
  
  However, if you strap the mouse to your face, now if you move the mouse up, your head tilts up aswell. If you move it right, you look right. And given in 1st person games the camera is at the front of the head, this is why non-inverted is preferred.
  
  The only argument for either is personal preference and more people prefer the latter, non-inverted, which is why it is not the default.
- If they grab the back of your head, sure, but if they grabbed your nose and angled it up your vision would go up. The question, then, is where is your perception of the mouse
- just imagine them pulling your hair from the front then
- Spoken like a gentleman who drinks his orange juice warm while eating his daily tune of toothpaste.
I have to switch the y axis in every 3rd person game now because of super Mario sunshine.

I blame macs for this. The mouse should move the viewport, not the content, and touchpads/touchscreens are not mice. Having mice default to moving the viewport and touchscreens/-pads default to moving the content is perfectly natural.

perfectly natural

Have you talked to anyone who grew up with smartphones and tablets, then transitioned to computers with a pointer? They will strongly disagree with you.

The mental model we have of “scrolling” is largely a product of our earliest experience.
Gotta be honest as the resident Mac fanboy, it blew my mind that they don't separate this. Natural scroll on trackpads makes sense. Traditional scrolling on mice makes sense. Apparently, if you use a combo mouse/trackpad (like in my case, a laptop with a mouse on the side to prevent RSI) you can only pick one or the other without a third party app.
- They don’t separate it because scrolling on the goddamned Magic Mouse is more similar to a trackpad. I’m like 99% sure that’s it. I vaguely remember that thing’s introduction being around the same time natural scrolling became the default.

they are GASLIGHTING us into thinking reverse way is NORMAL!

i only use that for touchpad

Yes, that would make sense, but why does the UI show a mouse with a scroll wheel then.

Stop trying to make all PCs phones, its not going to happen. STOP.

I love the natural direction for my track pad and phone, but I'll die before I use it on my mouse. I have to use a 3rd party app to make my mouse behave the way I want and still use a track pad

I preferred the term "Australian scrolling"

Fuck off, mate

(just joking :))
- Ah yeah nah no wukkas, you's a good cunt :)

You only use that on a touchpad

I have natural scrolling on for both mouse and touchpad, I like it much better. It's a pain in Windows though, have to edit register to change wheel direction.

I still haven't figured out how to enable it on Samsung Dex 🙄

Most of the time, the linux memes community sparks better debates and discussion than the linux one, where everything is circlejerk and "windows bad"

the linuxgaming communities are also generally p decent

i dont get it. what's "natural scrolling"?

The wrong way. Scrolling moves the content instead of moving the "camera".

Touch screens move the content. Mouse wheels have always moved the observer/camera. They're pushing the touch scrolling style to mouse wheels too.
- It's honestly strange we haven't agreed on a better naming convention like "touch screen scrolling" and "desktop scrolling" to indicate their intended uses
- Thanks for explaining, because based on the displayed pucture and the direction arrows in the content window you would think it's the other way - scrolling mouse wheel up to move content up.
  
  Confusing way too display it, but I guess whoever is in that settings window knows what they're on at the moment and that it would invert it.
- "They're pushing"? Who's "they"? As far as I could see, it's an unchecked option.
  In any case, what's the historical reason for mouse wheels actually working like they do?
"Natural scrolling" just reverses the scroll direction. Pushing the mouse wheel up will scroll the content down. It's called "natural" because it's similar to the way you drag content around on touch screens.

it's mostly for touchpads, I find it better as it mimics the behaviour on phones touchscreen but sometimes I disable it

I hope nobody uses it on a mouse

Apple enters the chat

What am I missing? What else would the mouse wheel do?

"Scrolling moves the content" means the content moves opposite of the direction you scroll a la smartphones and tablets, i.e. scrolling up will make content move down.
- Thank you, I was so confused. Now when I look at it, I get it. I was like, but both arrows are pointing up, when I scroll forward with the wheel, the viewport also scrolls up.

That's how I always felt, but after using Apple track pads for so long, my reflex for scrolling has changed.

Because I use my track pad and mouse interchangeably all the time, I just need them to use the same direction for scroll.

This is for people native to touchscreens on mobile, that are now using a touch screen laptop or touchpad.

This got pushed on me on my latest Manjaro/KDE update and unchecking the checkbox does nothing. 😒 Anyone else had this issue?

I would say that