Linux @programming.dev 7dev7random7 @suppo.fi 5d ago

My ~$2700 ThinkPad is worth $650 re Lenovo

Let's start with my mistakes:

I haven't followed LKML.
I assumed: Every ThinkPad has - overall - perfect Linux support, so this will as well.
I did look up support when purchasing but I was still not verifying on the LKML.
Edit: I trusted Qualcomm's marketing

So, I wanted a ARM-Linux laptop so bad. I heared about the Lenovo ThinkPad X13s in 2023 and I looked at marketing promises and (rare!) takes on it. Then there was the opportunity to buy this laptop fir a good price with the entire stats I would require for my next 10+ years. So I bought it.

In order to bake Linux on it I had to read up upon many things - I run it daily but have to accept some downsizes.

Anyhow, I thought this title would be interessting regarding Lenovo's and Qualcomm's "success" on ARM so that others may be aware that I am looking daily for the LKML and my model SC8280XP.

There is ONE SINGLE CONTRIBUTOR (there were two; The other joined Lenovo) allowed to have "elected and requested" documents in order to aid support. Despite their intentions (QUALCOMM) to support Linux. And I furthermore assume it hasn't have changed with the new Snapdragon X processors.

So, thanks to John Hovold and Linaro for doing an awesome job. I wish I could support you.

43 comments

I'll be honest, this sounds interesting, but I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
Where does the $2700 price come from?
Does it support Linux or not?
Are you happy with it or not?
What's LKMS?
I'm really struggling to even parse the basics from your post.
- I'll be honest, this sounds interesting, but I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
  
  I am just sharing for the community. And I want some nerdish engagement tbqh.
  
  Where does the $2700 price come from?
  
  It was the manufacture price when I purchased it.
  
  Does it support Linux or not?
  
  It does but there are a few important things lacking. Also it isn't stable without reading up on LKMS upfront and knowing what to do. Not all distros are capable of booting it yet (e.g. void).
  
  Are you happy with it or not?
  
  I poured ~$1200 to Qualcomm/Lenovo and they are employing one worker from one sub company. Interpret it on your own.
  
  What's LKMS?
  
  RTFM. // Edit: I missspelled. LKML. I edited my post. Appreciated.
  
  I'm really struggling to even parse the basics from your post.
  
  I am open for sharing my insights, though : )
  
  Where does the $2700 price come from?
  
  It was the manufacture price when I purchased it.
  
  I poured ~$1200 to Qualcomm/Lenovo
  
  I'm even more confused now. Did you pay 1200$ or 2400$, and if the second why would you for a laptop with these specs?
  
  I missspelled. LKML. I edited my post.
  
  You edited one LKMS. But... What about 2nd LKMS?
  
  ~~Idk why I get downvoted for this.~~
  
  I am transparent and sharing my experience. I almost paid $2000 dollar for my dream and contributed as best as I can.
  
  ~~TIL: Don't fk post.~~
  
  // Edit: But prompt your confusion. You may get insight.
Lenovo artificially inflates the [M]SRP and has fake “sales” to make it seem like you’re getting a good deal. Never ever trust that.

As you discovered there is often one single person working on getting these devices compatible. As an example the OpenBSD team and others will sometimes suggest you donate a system in order for anything to happen. And even then there are no guarantees if blobs are involved.

This is a pretty big goof up but I’ve made the same mistake when the x200 first came out. I think you’re getting dragged because what people are curious about is what specifically isn’t working. I’m surprised it’s working at all but then again John is a beast.
- This is true for tons of companies across the board
  
  The fake sale, blobs, proprietary nonsense etc things? Can confirm I’ve seen others pull the same crap. For me Lenovo was the most blatant. But Dell came close. If you have other examples I’d like to see it.
Why didn't you buy a framework, or even a macbook and run asahi Linux on it?
- Do either of them have mouse nipples?
  
  Neither will Thinkpad soon.
- Asahi is not suitable for daily driver yet afaik. But Framework is a good one.
- A friend of mine bought an used M1 and Linux support is limited to this day. I just want to run Debian (stable).
  
  Framework doesn't have (and still hasn't) an aarch64 CPU.
  
  The benefits of an ARM-Linux based laptop for me are:
  
  Running my obiquitious OS (Debian).
  
  No fans and less heat on the lap (note that charging heats the battery which in turn heats the laptop. Though this is just 25 Minutes to charge up and this laptop [X13s] cools down very fast)
  
  battery life (I can safely assume 6 heavy hours of no-plugin vim, REPL and browsing).
  
  You may come up with downsizes and I bet I can address these with easy workarounds to stay within my requirements.
  
  I get all those stated benefits on my Framework 13 AMD, except my battery life is longer.
More insights I gained using this laptop (intended for the curious Linux enthusiast):

Kernel support for Audio and Screens is heavily dependend on user space: X.org and Wayland experience differs immensely. Even some udev-rules only work with certain compositors (and X11 feels like it is out of scope).

Debian lacks people contributing to the linux and linux-firmware package. The onboarding is quite steep due to a lack of alignment between code and documentation.

Developers if userspace programs react very fast to new requirements but they rely on upstreamed (to Debian's kernel-team) kernel-config's.

Prompting bugs to the kernel appears to be done through kernel contributors only: Users will prompt hindrances on IRC (via OTFC, #aarch64-laptops) prompting the contributor and they will verify and support before addressing issues.

There are archived advancements to the support which can't be merged due to citation reasons and alignment with upstream can't be done by the individual (there is a pareto-capable kernel for virtualization but within one week hunderts of commits need to get reviewed). This is impressive imo.
If it comes with Windows pre installed, that's a big red flag for me. Also there will be the cost of a license for it included in the cost that MS will pocket giving nothing in return.
I assume the 2700 is SRP? Don't use SRP ever, it's total nonsense. It has in fact become such nonsense use of SRP in marketing/sales is actually illegal in the EU. Instead of it being an actual price point manufacturers intended for the product to be sold at, it's always always a factor of that. So shops could advertise with a 50% discount on SRP, to get at what is just the regular price and not even a good one at that. That was considered so misleading, SRP use is banned. Instead the marketing can only be based on actual lowest prices the product was for sale at.
- You may chime in here: I purchased it with three years of support as well (they [Lenovo] exchanged my brickes speakers, btw).
Didn't Lenovo have some privacy issues, like a key logger or sum iirc? Kinda a vague memory but I remember that's why I didn't buy one.
- Are you thinking of this?
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_incident

43 comments