Is there any non-zero possibility Musk was not doing a Hitler Salute?

Yea sure - but it doesn't matter. It could have mattered but his reaction to the reaction means it doesn't.

If you accidentally do a nazi salute and then someone says "Hey bro, you really shouldn't do a nazi salute" and another dude says "Hey bro, white power! I'm glad you're on our side" and your immediate reaction isn't "Oh fuck guys, I didn't know that was a nazi salute, I fucking hate nazis" then, well, you did a nazi salute.

1. Elon did a thing.

2. People said "That's a nazi thing".

3. Elon didn't immediately say "No, I didn't do the nazi thing."

4. ∴ Elon is a nazi.

It's also not like the fucker doesn't have the ability to issue a statement correcting the public perception. He literally owns fucking X and the media salivate over his press releases.

35 yo autistic person here:

I tend to ramble on and on when I am somewhat nervous, or excited and genuinely interested in someone or something, i'll include too much detail that does eventually wrap around to connect to all the points I am trying to make, or story I'm trying to tell, but it can be laborious for a listener to make sense of.

I will often interperet things people say so literally that I miss or forget the context that the conversation is taking place in which gives a word or phrase a specific meaning, and have to ask for clarification.

Saying goodbye and ending a conversation is always either too long and drawn out, or abrupt and curt to the point of often being interpreted as rude, even though I don't mean to be rude.

...

I do not have a tendency to do a goddamned nazi salute unintentionally.

Thats uh, a pretty unambiguous, obvious social ettiquette rule, pretty binary, pretty cut and dry.

No. And here’s why:

ELON MUSK HAS NOT DENIED THAT HE MADE A NAZI SALUTE!

The closest he has come to a denial, so far as I can find over 48 hours after he made the gesture, is a deflective tweet mocking the people who recognized the link to Nazis as being uncreative.

This means one of two things: a. He doesn’t care that it is being construed as a Nazi salute. OR
b. He wants it to be construed as a Nazi salute.

These two options very much amount to the same thing.

We will never know what exactly was going through his mind at the moment he made the motion. Regardless, even if Musk had somehow not initially intended the gesture to be a Nazi salute, he has transformed it into one by promoting that interpretation.

It doesn't matter.

It REALLY doesn't matter.

If he was doing a Nazi salute, the consequences are obvious. If he was doing something "like" a Nazi salute but can plausibly deny it, the result is exactly the same; and that means that the intent is the same, even if it is proven (magically!) that it wasn't a Nazi salute.

This is the result:

The Nazis of the world all saw it, and took it as a sign of unity. Nothing else matters.

Now Musk may or not may be autistic, but I know several autistic people (plus one with Tourette Syndrome, long ago) and you know what? Not a single one of them has done anything like a Nazi salute.

"Heil Hitler" as a phrase and a salute is fairly unique: It is something that is absolutely burned into the memory of most of humanity, regardless of language, culture, or society. Nobody with Musk's worldly knowledge and experience would accidentally do something that close to a Nazi salute. Hell, an eight year old from Latvia wouldn't accidentally do something like that. The knowledge and the taboo are absolutely burned into our collective consciousness.

There is absolutely zero chance whatsoever that Musk didn't know what he was doing.

And even if that's true, it honestly doesn't matter.

Have you actually watched it? It was clearly a fascists/nazi salute. People who say otherwise simply don't want to admit it.

Musk isn't someone who failed elementary school, he is the richest man on the world and the US secretary for government efficiency. He definitely knows what's a Nazi salute, and what isn't.

We're not in the context of a movie, a theatre play, a larp, or even a costume party where it would have been from OK to "stupid" but in the context of a political speech.

So it's definitely a nazi salute.

No. In my opinion.

He has demonstrated a propensity for political action up to and including world changing meddling in democracies.

His person demands enough yearly salary from Tesla to cure cancer.

He cites history and in my recollection claims no ignorance of history.

It may be technically possible that it was a faux pas, but it is not feasibly a faux pas and is inexcusable even if it was one.

Nah, as an autistic person who works with many autistic people (I am a support worker), no. Autistic people are able to miss things, mistake social cues, and so on, but blaming autism for a Nazi salute is absolutely bullshit. Not to mention that he has done tonnes of other stuff which is in line with a Nazi salute and this is just the last in a long line of behaviours, and his family history etc, yeah, not autism, just Nazi shit.

If he did it once, it would have been an extremely low but still non-zero chance that it wasn't a Nazi salute.

He did it twice though, it's now firmly a 0% chance of any kind of coincidence, misunderstanding, etc.

Thus far he's made no comment, not even to deny the Nazi intent.
No apology, no backtrack, no denial, he did it twice.
It was exactly what it appeared to be and nothing less.

i think he allowed himself to do it as part of his edgelord persona, trying to trigger people on purpose. the motion is intentional as his arm shoots straight out to the side as opposed to being directed to the center of the crowd or sweeping across the crowd as if to spread his "heart" as it were.

the autism defense is one that i think is being used to try to checkmate the left on the subject, as they are the most offended by the gesture but also more likely to be sensitive to neurodivergent persons and potentially less likely to criticize their actions.

in short, i believe he intended the gesture as interpreted, just not as a genuine expression of his personal beliefs. that being said, i think hes a white supremacist fascist, but i dont think he thinks hes a white supremacist fascist.

He did the Nazi salute twice, intentionally.

He said "my heart goes out to you" because of plausible deniability. He was giving his followers an argument to deny that he did it intentionally, both to themselves and others.

He has not directly denied it nor apologized for it.

European leaders are acknowledging it for what it is. Neo-Nazis are acknowledging it for what it is, and they loved it.

People who are sincerely on the fence about this, admitted they actually exist, need to wake the fuck up.

He has been a public figure for over a decade and has a dedicated PR team. He knew exactly what he was doing. I have autism, I know what it is like, there is no chance I would ever do this.

A detail of note is that he denies having autism and prefers the term aspbergers which is not recognized by the DSM-5. This is interesting begans Hans Aspberger was an ardent eugenicist with nazi ties. Elon Musk is a fascist and has been for a long time.

If it was an accident, he'd probably have apologized by now. But it really doesn't matter either way. It's too late now, he's given license to the far right to see it as the endorsement they want.

I don't think so. My case:

• Just at the level of fuckin eyeballing it, the comparisons to how Hitler did it to how Musk did it are pretty damning.

• I asked Germans on Lemmy if Musk would've gotten fined if he was anyone else and had done this at an event in Germany, the answer was a confident yes. I expect Germans know it when they see it, and know how not to fall foul of the law, so that's another good test that says Musk knew what he was doing.

• Last and most damning is when you consider the context of the man himself. Musk has been directly sponsoring and promoting not just right wing but reactionary parties like AfD, MAGA, and whatever Nigel Farage's fucking circus is called for years. You can also see this in how Twitter's content is managed. The dude has been putting in lots of very visible work boosting Nazi messaging and actual Nazi politicians/parties. Is it REALLY such a shock that he would, ahem, stop hiding his power level in such a public way after a win like the 2024 election? I don't think so, and especially not if you accept that Musk believes there's not going to be another meaningful election. I don't think the other oligarchs think so either, that's why they've been so quick to fall in line and pay their tribute.

It's time to face the music. Chat, we might be cooked.

If you do something horrible by accident, you apologize for it. The fact that he hasn't, tells you everything you need to know.

I don't think they are nazis, I think they are fascists. And I don't think they even think of themselves as fascists, I think they just think power sets the rules and that a lot of people on the left's attempts at 'fairness' are dumb, and (they think) 'well if you want to call that 'fascism' then you're an overreacting bitter delusional leftie'

Or something like that

I suspect he did it to take the piss. And to signal to elements of the right / far right that they should breathe a little more freely

Same way his government department is "doge". Same way he named Tesla's products "S.E.X.Y". Many many things he does are bait.

But do I think musk stands for what the Nazis did? No. And I think he, and his type, enjoy thinking it's "ridiculous" that anyone thinks that. "Obviously" he doesn't want to gas the Jews. "Obviously" he doesn't think all black people should be lynched.

But I do think he thinks it's ok trans people are made to fear. That sub cultures are made to feel unwelcome. That non-'wasp' lives are ruined whenever convenient. That checks and balances in government are as changeable as the furniture.

I think he thinks industry should serve a grand national vision.

I don't think he gives a shit what that vision is as long as it involves him getting even more stupid wealthy

So this pretty much sums up fascism. He's a fascist not a nazi..

People win elections all the time. People celebrate elections all the time. The last time somebody taking power did a gesture that looked like this was probably in Germany, 1933. This is no coincidence.

First I'm not sure if he's autistic or just saying "I've got Asperger's so I'm allowed to be an asshole and you just need to deal."

But let's assume he is...

High functioning autism is not associated with involuntary Nazi salute gestures. It's also not associated with the inability to learn the significance of the gesture.

So if autism is somehow related, then how would it be?

Well the "nice" option is he is going full 4-chan troll mode thinking it is hilarious without processing just how bad it is.

The other option is that he thought he did a credible cover to blow a dog whistle, but was unable to process that he was blowing a tuba instead.

In short, even if it was because of autism, it still almost certainly means it's still quite on purpose, so it's hardly an excuse that makes things any better.

No.

The only way his autism is related is if he overestimated how funny it would be. But he 100% meant to do a Nazi salute. Twice, and then repeated a dog whistle to the 14-words.

If it was an honest mistake he would've apologized.

No

The fact that this is even a conversation is just insane to me...

The dudes family got rich using African slaves to dig diamonds out of the dirt. Oppression and dehumanization is in his blood. The only way to cure that is to let the blood out

EDIT: it was an emerald mine, not a diamond mine

I mean, considering the fact that it's been days and he hasn't recanted and that he has a history of supporting far right parties like the AfD, no

Where was the apology?

There was none.

He knew what he did.

Honesty here. The autistic argument is really offensive to people with autism, I asked a friend with high functioning autism about his opinion. It mistreats the condition to transform it into a political scapegoat. It misrepresents what autism is. Elon is not autistic, he's is just a narcissist and always high on ketamine. I've met dozens of autistic persons, and not even once has anyone ever done the Nazi salute on accident, not even on highly euphoric social events. To suggest the autistic apology makes the person mentioning it sound awfully ableist and like an asshole. I suggest you don't ever mention it out loud to anyone ever again. It's insidious and dehumanizing against people with cognitive issues.

There was this period before WWII when stuff started happening to reduce the rights of minorities, but they weren’t being killed blatantly. Is this where we are?

Yes, precisely. And it was undoubtedly a Nazi salute.

There is always a possibility that he did not intend it to be a Hitler salute, but that possibility is not very plausible, because…he pretty much did a Hitler salute and the odds of him being ignorant of that fact are extremely low.

It's not an autism thing. The people saying that are deflecting. Autistic people don't throw practiced Hitler salutes as a stim.

Yes, it's possible, but he's a spoiled right wing idiot edge lord, so I'd take it at face value.

Absolutely zero. The man is an out and proud Nazi who has openly said and supported anti-semitic shit on his Twitter. If any accident occurred, it is that he accidentally did it out loud and on camera, instead of the privacy of his own home.

You are also very correct, we are going through the opening beats that Nazi Germany went through. Klan members are sending out flyers in Kentucky, ICE agents are threatening to raid Democrat cities, and "deportation facilities" are being planned for construction in Texas. We have passed all the warning signs; it is happening here now.

I can imagine him practicing in the mirror for hours to get exactly the right arm motion for a Nazi salute that is imperfect by just enough that some people will contemplate the possibility that it wasn't one.

Read the Led by Donkeys tweet about all the shit he's been up to recently in Europe. He's gone full retard for white supremacists.

https://i.imgur.com/wpqNYi6.mp4

You tell me

Oh yeah, there's definitely a possibility. It's just that possibility is very very small.

Watch it again. It seems there is a split second hesitation before the first salute. Followed by a "let's just get that done full force" move. Kinda like people that are about to do a stunt the first time. One last "are we really going to try that?". It kinda implies intent and also that there is some sanity left there to make these decisions. Which gives me hope it's just Putin having a video of him and he is acting under duress. So definitively an intentional Nazi salute. Should try that in Germany and see how fast he gets arrested for that shit.

The main issue is that his heil combined with his previously expressed opinions and actions removes all doubt

No.

We're talking about a man who has obviously fascist politics. Pretty much anyone knows not to do a nazi salute in front of millions of people, and he did it twice. Besides, if it somehow were an accident, he'd have immediately apologised.

He definitely did a Hitler salute, but I don't think he meant it as one. Also, I think old-school nazis would've berated him for it being a shitty one.

Looking at the clip, and hearing what he said, I think he meant it as "my heart goes out to you" - his exact words when he did it. But it's quite telling that he instinctively used that gesture and saw nothing wrong about it.

He's still a fascist white supremacist, though, we all knew that before this happened.

Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced it was a Nazi salute. I think, given how stupid and akward he is, and the fact that the salute was so off-angle, it could have actually been an akward "my heart goes out to you" gesture.

That said, focusing on this possible red flag is stupid and honestly makes light of the situation, when looking at Elon Musk's history and past statements is like standing in the Red Square on parade day. The bigger and more undeniable red flags are all throughout his past, and continued after the salute, such as his refusal to apologize. I guess its good that people are finally putting their foot down, but the appropriate time was a decade ago at least.

He absolutely knew what he was doing. His fans thought we were being hyperbolic when we said he was a fascist a decade ago. His fans are idiots

He has been at the head of a company for years. He is now in a position of overseeing and altering whole government organizations.

He knows the stakes, he knows the responsibility, he's been in the public eye for a long time. The salute was legit that is out of the question, he could have made any number of different gestures but he did that particular one twice.

Now at BEST it was "just" a senseless and reckless lapse of judgement or some batshit level trolling. But even if I gave that benefit of the doubt why would I want someone with that little self control anywhere near the level of government that he is currently playing with?

If I was calling the shots I would show him the door and pull all US Govt support for anything he touches on principal alone. Not a fan of Trump but even he hasn't pulled shit like this.

it has nothing to do with being autistic, however he was fucking zooted on ketamine during ceremony. I doubt that he's ever sober as of lately.

Drug usage can fuck up people good or bring out what's hiding real deep in them, see Kanye's story with nitrous. And that's precisely why he's dangerous, he is powerful and deranged at the same time.

Based on the fact that he did it repeatedly, I think it was at least an intentional gesture. I will give the benefit of the doubt and say that it may have been intended some other way as opposed to a Nazi salute, but my personal opinion is that it resembled a Nazi salute on purpose. Theoretically autism could have been a factor, but I doubt it in this case. We aren't quite at the point you mention at the end there yet, but we are rapidly approaching such a point and you should be wary and do your own research about what's going on so you can be well-informed.

I guess if I am nit-picking, it's very hard for a statistician to claim anything as having a zero possibility... of course a statement like that helps no one. These are my actual thoughts:

non-zero possibility

It is technically possible that Musk's gesture was not a Nazi salute but rather something that looks similar. Fun fact, this is something that happened with S. Korea's Megalian hand gesture issue (for example see this case: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2621gzvkdo), where ppl found the gesture in a lot of unexpected places. However, the Megalian gesture is a pretty common hand movement, whereas the Nazi salute... I mean I guess it could happen due to a really bad out-of-context dance choreography?? But that clearly wasn't Musk's case

"But I am just wondering if everyone else sees this that way with no room for it being a result of autism and definitely that."

... I mean maybe?? I have weird Autistic intrusive thoughts sometimes but even then this is a bit... Honestly though, I don't know if I should put any respect to someone who willingly know what a Nazi salute is, and then choose to do it in front of one of the most important political events in the world, twice in a row nontheless. I find it hard to believe such an act to be a faux pass and non-intentional. Heck even if it is completely unintentional, this would be ground for job termination and put on a blacklist for life for most job positions I know

"Is this where we are? I feel more scared to be in America now."

Yeah I know... I seriously wonder why I am still in the US as well.

It's not the ONLY sign that he's possibly a nazi. That's why I am leaning toward him very likely being a nazi.

anything is possible until the guy actually admits and quips 'deal with it'. imo, which he won't because suddenly he's relevant again with all these attention.

another opinion of mine is with enough mental gymnastics, there would exist a non-zero probability for it.

best is to settle for the simplest reason and just move on.

There was this period before WWII when stuff started happening to reduce the rights of minorities, but they weren’t being killed blatantly. Is this where we are?

None of that changes/happens with an exuberant salute. Embarassing for him, but you can ask him what were the good ideas Hitler had.

Americans and world will be genocided because oligarchy can see a path where slaves are a hindrance if they don't just die quietly instead of being genocided. Oligarchs could instead choose to be richer, which happens when there are more people to make stuff for them and buy their workers' stuff, but using wealth for power is a simpler thought.

The only viable politics is UBI, but we could only get warmongering neocons as "the opposition", and you will suck up to the same again.

If he had rehearsed his script, everyone would've pointed out the issue

I mean sure. EVERYTHING has a non-zero chance of happening/be possible. Doesn't mean it's likely, or believable.

There's a chance someone has forked the blueprints of Nikola Teslas blueprints for a mind control device, and has been controling Musk for years. Just making him do/say whatever.

I'm not saying it's a good chance. I'm not saying I believe that to be true on any level. But I suppose there's nothing truely stopping that from happening.

Yes because the name for it is the fascist salute not the Hitler salute