Non-religious emergency responders/medicos of Lemmy, do you believe that something is 'missing' when looking at a corpse?
Non-religious emergency responders/medicos of Lemmy, do you believe that something is 'missing' when looking at a corpse?
Firefighter here. I was reflecting on a fatality I attended recently. My thoughts wandered to how a body looks like it is 'just matter' in a way that a living thing does not, even when sleeping. Previously I assumed this observation was just something to do with traumatic death, but this person seemed to have died peacefully and the same, 'absence' of something was obvious.
I'm not a religious person, but it made me wonder if there actually is something that 'leaves' when someone dies (beyond the obvious breathing, pulse etc).
I'm not looking for a 'my holy book says', kind of discussion here, but rather a reflection on the direct, lived experiences of people who see death regularly.
It's just a living body makes so many minute movements we don't usually notice.
Lungs Expanding and contracting, flow of blood (yeah you can notice that), texture of the skin, muscle position, etc.
We have evolved to quickly differentiate between a living body and dead body. That's why the uncanny valley exists.
We have evolved to quickly differentiate between a living body and dead body. That's why the uncanny valley exists.
Interesting. Any thoughts on what evolutionary advantage there is for being able to sense whether someone is alive or not?
I seem to recall that animals can sense whether other animals are dead (or rotten/contaminated)?
Imagine coming upon a lot of delicious-looking mushrooms, a couple of which are in the hands and mouth of a dead person. Being faster to realize the person is dead, and to flee, than the time it takes to take and eat the mushrooms, is why you'll live to reproduce. Same for the dead animals around that fresh-looking water hole.
I don't think there's any great mystery to this. We want to breed with the mate most likely to help us produce viable offspring. Therefore we're sensitive to indications of health and good genes. Symmetry, smoothness of muscle movements, quality of skin & hair, indications of good blood flow, even things like regular breathing are all indications. When we see a simulation that appears not quite human it's noticable for all those details. That detection of unhealthy can easily detect death of course. There may also have been an instinct to avoid the sick, but social pressures override that sometimes.
The internet theory that we wanted to detect imposter humans is silly. Early hominids interbred a lot. It's not "human" that we're sensitive too. Just health.
I have to admit I have wondered if it is the blue skin.
There’s a tension and maybe responsiveness to skin and muscles that is uncanny when missing. Not sure many here could 100% recognize that very early on at the point of death, but at some point there is a wariness/unnatural look to the skin. Between that and our assumed ability to pick up on a complete lack of movement/breathing/pallor makes it reasonably certain that there is a “something” we recognize as missing, even if it’s hard to describe perfectly.
This is exactly what the uncanny valley is. A corpse is so close to resembling a living human without being a living human that it freaks our brains out.
and for good reason. we probably should - even in the modern day - be wary when finding a dead body.
This is why I find tv corpses too "pretty". Dead people have this slackness to the face that actors pretending to be dead can't or won't emulate. The closest to a dead person's face among the living is a drunk sleeper.
I've hospiced plenty of folks right until they've passed and that feeling of missing comes sooner than clinical death, I'll tell you. Once someone's respiration rate drops low enough and their pulse and BP are undetectable, and the blood starts pooling, you'll have a very hard time differentiating them from a body without a stethoscope and time. Clinically dead folks do tend to become a job to deal with and aren't something that register as people, though you still feel the need to be respectful.
There is a lot that is missing, your body has to do a lot just function. We get so used to seeing these things that when you don't it looks just wrong. It's the same issue that is showing up when companies try to make robots with human faces, they are not doing the normal things a person's body does and this looks just wrong to us like something is missing. That is why it's better to make robots that don't look too close to humans so it don't look so weird.
That is why it's better to make robots that don't look too close to humans so it doesn't look so weird.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
Yup, if the robot looks nothing like a real human or it resembles a human perfectly, then everything feels fine. But, in between is where it feels weird.
Mortician here.
Deceased people actually do get "lighter". Immediately after death they loose 50-200 Gramm within seconds, mostly the air they had breath in and is slowly exhaled. After that they start to get lighter due to loss of fluids. I don't want to go into too much detail but it is not just vaporated water. Depending on position at death and temperature that can be around 10-200 Gramm per hour. That is for the trained eye quite visible as it mostly happens in the outer layers of the body. This also is the reason why deceased men often look unshaved, their hair doesn't grow, their skin just shrinks.
Most times it is very obvious if the person is dead. But I have also had some uncanny valley experiences where I thought "is she/he maybe just asleep?" In one case a doctor called me to an old woman where two police officers and the doctor claimed her to be dead. I arrived, we grabbed her to lift her up and suddenly she jumps up and scolds us for waking her up.
That was the first time when I had tea and cookies with a customer. She lived for another four years and died at age 101. I felt quite strange visiting the same person twice in my job.
Besides that, you get used to it. Keep it professional, slightly distant, developed a routine. The routine can and should include keeping respect at all time but not necessarily emotions. My Grandpa was pretty good at that, he could even shed a tear without actually feeling something. It helped the bereaved to open for their own emotions.
Not responding to your post specifically but I'm just making you aware that there are people who practice spirituality and believe in the soul and there being more out there without being religious
It’s hard to explain, but dead looks different from alive. I’ve seen alive people not breathing, and with their heart stopped, and even shot and bleeding out, but dead is something else.