Anyone getting suspicious of the divisiveness and anti-American circle jerk on Lemmy?
Anyone getting suspicious of the divisiveness and anti-American circle jerk on Lemmy?
Lemmy has a strong tendency to criticize the US, and a lot of the critiques of certain issue with the US are valid. However, I started getting really tired of opening comment sections in innocuous and non-political posts only to see that someone somehow found a way to criticize the US in it. At first, I started thinking that maybe some Lemmy users are really unhappy and find criticizing a something stronger helped them feel better as if standing up to injustice was a passion of theirs. But, we don't see them do that with other targets, just the US. The more I notice and think about it, I'm starting be suspicious that some of those users and comments aren't authentic, but made to create divisiveness in the West and reject the US entirely. In other words, they may be Russian, Chinese, et al. agents working to feed a stream of propaganda in order to further cause chaos and lack of unity in the West as we have seen them do before.
Anyone else think about this?
This is what I'm thinking the game plan is:
- Criticize something obviously unjust that the US has done. Ignore that all other major powers have also committed atrocities.
- Link and liken it to other US matters & behaviors
- Paint the US entirely as evil so that nothing the US can do is just
- Attack anyone that supports anything out of the US (we are between here and #3 above)
- Create a black-and-white model of geopolitics: US vs everyone else. EU and Russia on the same team lol
- West fragments as US and EU relationship dwindle from pseudo-populist movements (e.g. MAGA)
- Pick specific countries in the EU to start alienating and repeat the cycle
- ???
- Profit in special economic zones
as an american, i whole-heartedly support anti-american sentiment. we fucking deserve all of it. we voted in a clown shitshow of a government and of course the world should laugh
And this isn't even the first clown shitshow of a government we've voted in this century
of course. and dont forget the whole fucking over the globe by forcing our version of democracy everywhere. or that our biggest industry is generating human killing devices we spread across the planet under the guise of 'defense'... or that our country was founded by genociding almost an entire continent of humans.
i find it beyond funny that we support israel because 'they were there first', but if you mention that maybe the american indians should rise up and take their country back you get very different responses. america is the land hypocrites.
As an outsider (not american and don't live in the US) I just want to add that I'm not "anti-american". The problem is that you guys built a "bully" reputation while at the same time we see the hardships the regular american have to go through without healthcare, education and labour laws, and nobody really cares.
Nearly half the electorate didn’t vote for the reactionaries. I’d also add that this regression isn’t an exclusively American phenomenon, we’re just unfortunately at the vanguard.
came to write something like this. feel the exact same. we don't need to post the election results to am I the asshole because we are not the assholes.
I'm less worried about the anti-American tendencies than about the pro-Russian and pro-Chinese ones.
Because how could anyone support the country with a higher living standard than America changed in the time frame of one generation, right?
North Korea really is amazing isn't it?
!If you don't get it, North Korea allegedly is a wonderful place to live with very high living standards but obviously isn't. Closed communication countries like China, North Korea, and increasingly Russia's claims about "how good things are" must be taken with an absolute grain of salt. Unfortunately, this list could even come to include the United States soon given Trump's desire to silence critics.!<
There are cases where they legitimately offer something better so they are viewed favorable. Especially China for some regional investments.
These are in my opinion good reasons and you have to ask yourself what the West can do better to change it.
How insanely American to think America being criticized a lot must mean propaganda.
Lemmy.world may have the least of this since they neolib gobblers
I'm American. I love where I live. There's a lot of great people, food, experiences, and places. It's a vast place where a lot of great, forward looking things happen.
However, the government allows billionaires to control it and prevents it from serving its people. We are fucking angry.
And nothing will change through voting for nothing candidates like Kamala or Trump
American here. When you elect a man—twice—whose character and policies have led to a fractured nation, a failing education system, crumbling infrastructure, and a healthcare system that leaves millions behind, it's no surprise that the world views us with disdain. When your citizens are struggling to afford basic necessities like rent and groceries while a handful of individuals hoard wealth that rivals entire nations, we’ve earned every ounce of criticism.
Buckle up, because the descent into this nightmare is far from over. The worst is yet to come, and it's going to be a long, suffocating fall.
Don't forget one of our largest cities is currently on fire because of our own man made climate change that we are (I believe) the number one cause of, but those same leaders are telling us to shrug and say "who knows why"
I find it a little frustrating that you think any of this started with, because of, or will end with cheeto.
This:
a fractured nation, a failing education system, crumbling infrastructure, and a healthcare system that leaves millions behind
has always been the case, and it is a feature, not a bug. Always has been.
And it will never change as long as you continue to focus on the things the system tells you to focus on (like team red vs team blue, or the clown at the front of the stage) rather than on the system itself (a state mechanism built on slavery and genocide from day dot, and designed and enforced by and for the rich and powerful, who are the ones actually pulling the strings) and abolishing that.
And before OP gets their underwear in a twist - all states are oppressive and should be abolished, but a country founded on and with the biggest hard on for capitalism on the planet, and who has the power to, and has been since its founding, loudly and aggressively dragging the rest of the world on a race to the bottom (if not directly with war mongering and political interfering, then with profiteering off of their enemies war mongering and politically interfering), deserves all the criticism it gets, and the fact that it's easier for you to create a straw person to dismiss the perfectly valid and long overdue criticism, than it is to hear them and sit with the mild discomfort it causes you to hear the truth and confront reality, is a you problem, not a lemmy problem.
I'm American. I'll jump on the criticize America bandwagon any day!
So, no, we suck in the worst possible ways. That is really all there is to it
Your question contains hints at where you're coming from.
At first, I started thinking that maybe some Lemmy users are really unhappy and find criticizing a something stronger helped them feel better
You look at the criticism and you think they're simply people being jealous or something, that's not it at all. To be fair I'm not sure about what criticism are you seeing constantly, but the ones I've encountered mostly reflect my own criticism of it, e.g. the worst health care in the world, terrible education, abismal class gap, blatant racism, police brutality, overspenditure in military, school shootings, etc, etc, etc. Let me be absolutely clear, the US is NOT stronger than any developed country in any of these, I've lived in places with terrible healthcare that I would not wish on my worst enemy and they're still leaps and bounds better than what you guys have.
But, we don't see them do that with other targets, just the US.
But we do, the difference is no one is making posts claiming Russia is a better country and that's why people criticize it. And most other countries accept their shortcomings, take it from the thread a while back from what people in the US need to hear and the similar one for Europe. Every single one of the answers on the US had someone saying that it was just jealousy, or that it wasn't all that bad, or that that was better than the alternative, or one guy even tried to tell me that his city had none of those issues. On the other hand in the EU one most of the answers were more akin to "you're right, this is something that's really bad here".
reject the US entirely. In other words, they may be Russian, Chinese, et al. agents working to feed a stream of propaganda in order to further cause chaos and lack of unity in the West as we have seen them do before.
Let me be extremely clear here, Fuck Russia, Fuck China. For all of my criticisms of the USA it is still a (very weird and indirect) democracy. So if I had to choose between those 3 I'll take the USA every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Luckily I don't, and I can live in a country without any of the issues I see there and express my opinion on how poorly the USA treats their citizens (you have to keep paying taxes after moving abroad for crying out loud) in the same manner I would express myself against any other country doing the same.
Criticize something obviously unjust that the US has done. Ignore that all other major powers have also committed atrocities.
Most of the criticism I see re for what the US is doing NOW, not in the past.
Paint the US entirely as evil so that nothing the US can do is just
I don't think that's what the majority is doing, there could be a few people like it, but for the major part I think people recognize that the USA is a a "decent" place to live, especially when compared to Russia or China. But what you need to understand is that it's not the greatest country of all like you think, most of us would not move there unless we were offered ludicrous amounts of money.
EU and Russia on the same team lol
No one in Europe believes that, in fact you can still see plenty of Ukrainian flags around.
West fragments as US and EU relationship dwindle from pseudo-populist movements (e.g. MAGA)
If you think MAGA is pseudo-populism I would hate to see what you consider as real populism.
The short answer is that you're probably not used to people telling you the US is not all that great, so you see that as an attack, and you think that because people criticize you that means they are trying to make others hate you, but I think most of us are just pointing your shortcomings because a lot of you act like very entitled narcissists who think there's nothing wrong with the USA so obviously those who speak against it must be puppets.
TL;DR: criticism of the USA doesn't mean there's nothing good there, much less is it an endorsing Russia or China. But you don't need to tell narcissists what they're doing well, they'll tell you themselves.
the difference is no one is making posts claiming Russia is a better country and that's why people criticize it.
I see you also wisely blocked Lemmy.ml
strong tendency to criticize the US
The whole world has been criticizing the USA since I was born 50 years ago. All I remember is that their way of life is declining all the time, they lied to go to war with Irak, and now they elected Trump, which makes is worse.
someone somehow found a way to criticize the US in it
I can say the reverse. All the time I see Americans talking about the USA in conversations where it is not the topic. What do you think about this? Like someone made a pizza in a random Asian country, and the whole conversation will switch to how NY pizzas are the best.
they may be Russian, Chinese, et al. agents
You're paranoid. It's the internet, it's global, everyone criticizes everyone else. As for causing chaos, you elected one of the most disgusting felon who exists, the chaos is already there.
I mean we'd be fools to think there aren't bots and propaganda here, but overall I think it's just that Lemmy leans left and the left isn't particularly proud of what we've become.
For the past 80 years, we've made the world a worse place for the benefit of Americans. Which I get, to a point. Our government is elected to take care of American interests. Sometimes that's not pretty and often I don't agree with what has been done in my name, but I can appreciate that someone was trying to do what was right for the country.
But over the past 25 years, it's no longer about what's best for Americans and is about what's best for American wealth. That doesn't include most of us. So there is very little redeeming about our government now, and this is what a majority is voters wanted. Welp...
As someone who would probably qualify as one of these anti-American Americans on Lemmy I can say this: A big factor for me is the despair I feel (having genuinely believed the myths for most of my life) as I see the facade falling away. The genuine awfulness and inhumanity of not just our government, and our economy, but also of the culture, the people themselves, is just overwhelming. These forums are one of the outlets I’ve been using for my rage. I can only speak for myself. I’m not a bot, or a Russian actor, or an edgy teen. I’m a disillusioned middle aged American.
Arguably, disillusionment is the facade used to keep people in line
I've been there with the disillusionment. It felt like everything I had heard about the US was complete bs. I was really upset with the education I had received and started learning a lot about other countries that had been villainized in American culture because I had felt lied to and wondered what the truth was. I think it is valid to do so when we realize that. I also think that criticizing our government is one of most important duties of every American. It's one of the founding principles. In fact, whenever I am in Washington DC, I make sure to go flick off the the Capitol. I even take pictures.
However, I think it's disingenuous and unhelpful to only criticize the US, both government and people. The US has done helpful things, regardless of supposed intention. The impact of policies and behaviors are the same. Additionally, something that is only criticized ultimately has no option but to not care about its impact on other and be solely selfish. Otherwise, I can only cease existing because there's no option to improve and be welcomed. Personally, I think a more helpful approach to concerns with the US would be to also celebrate what it does right. This allows for it to correct itself and aim to be a more just and enjoyable country. It also allows for unity and growth with Western countries at a time when it looks the world is headed for a war between major powers. Hate the US all you want, while Russia has its positive as most countries do, it is my opinion that it is magnitudes worse of a county to live in many areas of life, from government oppression to economic hardships. On the positive side, it does seem to have an interesting history, unique problem-solving approaches, strong patriotism, valuable contributions to science, and outstanding artistic capacity.
You mean lemmy, the platform created and maintained by staunch marxist-leninists? That lemmy strikes you as anticapitalist and antiAmerican?
Weird.
Have you seen America lately?
Welcome to a non US centric platform. Twitter, Facebook, Reddit,Digg, etc are all US centric platforms so there will be a pile-on when US criticism is mentioned.
Lemmy.world is not a US centric instance so you don't see the pile-on. You get actual opinion on an over represented country.
HALP: This social media platform that isn't owned by a US corporation is not suppressing criticism of the US enough!
You can always go back to your safe space on Reddit or Facebook or whichever corpo US social media site.
The US bullies nearly every other nation on the planet, they also bully thier supposed friends. People have little option with a bully aside from vociferous push back.
You're right that the US is strong, they way you deal with your disputes is violence, or implied violence.
Look at the ICC where they will hurt the judges becase they have an arrest warrant out for Netanyahu to investigate war crimes but were all ra ra when the Court did the same for Putin. The US has an invade the Hauge Act if the same court investigates any US citizens for war crimes
https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law
Lemmy is more geographically diverse then many places online, so perhaps instead of taking umbrage, listen ?.
I'm American and the main reason I don't aim the same criticism towards other countries is that I'm American and don't know enough about them. Maybe some people are agitating for malign purposes, but how much does that matter to a responsible netizen? No one knows who anyone is - maybe idiot takes are made by idiots or bad actors, it doesn't change much. Lastly, one quote stuck with me after the last election season : " the reactionary is always right about what is wrong but almost always wrong about what would be right"
Best take, honestly. It's tribalism. People love to generalize and lean on prejudice to feel superior to a broad swath of people based on things largely out of their control. Which is exactly why the same approach also happens to work as propaganda.
I'm allowed to complain. I live here.
find criticizing a something stronger helped them feel better
🤦
Are you for real? And you are surprised US and USians get criticised?
No
I was listening to NPR a few days ago and they were talking -- in the context of Jimmy Carter's passing -- about the global community having to grapple with two different sides of the United States. The side that is incredibly generous and has contributed an enormous amount to the welfare of people throughout the world and the side that is a basically a bully that uses it's vast power and influence as a means to further it's own selfish interests.
Both of those things can certainly be true. The US has contributed a lot of positive things to the global community and at the same time, the US is effectively the most powerful and sophisticated empire in human history. Empires cannot maintain their power without oppression. Over the last 249 years, we have created some truly horrific disasters, at home and abroad, in the name of acquiring and maintaining power. That deserves criticism no matter who's doing it.
I would add that a lot of what Americans read as "criticism" can be explained by a heady combination of incredibly poor reading comprehension and a lifetime of being spoon-fed humour with a laugh-track.
The amount of angry, abusive reactions to posts that are clearly a joke is hilarious in itself and just makes us wind them up even more
Stop fucking declaring war on your allies and neighbours if you don't want people fucking pissed at you.
When the sentiment is anti-west generally, and anti-EU, then it seems sus to me, just anti-American feels pretty valid.
Am American, agree 100%. JFC we've destabilized countries around the world and are now getting hurt fee-fees because people are rightfully pissed off about it‽ We've made the world significantly less safe and now want to play the victim.
I had nothing to do with that. I'm not happy it happened. I'm pissed off that it ever happened. People in other countries aren't pissed at ME and I understand that, but they are definitely rightfully, pissed at my country and so am I.
A corporate owned platform is not going to expose you to viewpoints that are against its interests. Lemmy is more inline with the actual state of the world as you are talking to other humans.
Sure at times we many not like what we hear but that is ok. We all need to hear other viewpoints, it is how we grow. Its not a personal attack and if you think about it being critical of a government is good, people should want their government held accountable and working for the people.
It is also not about red vs blue or any of the other bullshit labels . None of that matters, you are more like the average Russian than your leaders. Most people just want to get on with their lives with as little bullshit as possible. As for loyalty to the nation, I like Einstein's answer here.
Viereck: "Do you look upon yourself as a German or as a Jew?"
Einstein: "It is quite possible, to be both. I look upon myself as a man. Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
I am from Europe and I am highly critical of the US as they are a bully, They are not some moral do-gooders that the movies paint them as. They have military bases all over the place and have meddled with so many countries. They are an empire.
"The U.S. has engaged in nearly 400 military interventions between 1776 and 2023"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States
As for the platform aspect, do you think Twitter or facebook and the rest have been a net positive for humanity ?
Sure there have been positives but there have been massive negatives such as
- the undermining of Democratic elections, brexit and trumps campaigns.
- things like xkeyscore where these companies in some cases collaborated with the NSA or if not the greed facilitated the collection of data.
- the algorithms that promote hate because it drives engagement, thus further driving a wedge in the fabric of society.
- we have seen governments pressure these companies to hand over data and they then arrest, torture or kill the users.
- things promoting US Interests are pushed such as the Arab spring but things against it such as occupy wall street or criticism of Israeli genocide is silenced or shadow banned.
- suicides from bullying
For the record I am critical of my own government too where it makes sense but they do not invade other countries.
It really takes living in America to appreciate how necessary anti-american sentiment is. Regime change begins at home.
True, we've already seen that right wingers are paid off by Russia to spout about inflation and other brain rot. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnJ6Ttaiu9M ) And a lot of people who are from the US compare their country to EU countries and find glaring holes in their society, like a lack of socialised healthcare, streamlined government services, ect and rant about it like Lemmy is twitter. Keep in mind that because Lemmy is majority English speaking the vast majority of post will be about the US, because its the defacto empire of the 21st century. For me I go out of my way to include communities from my own culture so I'm not out of the loop. The kinds of people who post politics to !Menes are the same people who take the definition of "meme" literally, and suck to talk to at every party they attend.
There’s no evidence this happens on Lemmy though. You don’t need a conspiracy to explain the fact that the site was founded by people with a certain viewpoint and it has and continues to attract more such people as it grows.
I would say that there's cross-section of users from different instances whose community have different expectations regarding netiquette. .ml or .grad users posting about how they hate america or (insert country here) is fine in their instance, but is annoying/insulting for other instances users. (.ml and grad are just examples and not exclusive to them.) There is no evidence of governmental interference for many reasons ranging from: its not actually happening, to, no one is looking for it, to, its too hard to detect. Imho most people are influenced by the ziteguist of opinion. And a little embellishment here and there on Twitter, is enough to spread the "general knowledge" that the world is so bad and there's nothing we can do. Even better, platforms promote this content to drive more engagement making the general opinion even worse.
Well, I'm a real European who is not a fan of the US. Not to the point where I'd prefer Russia or other dictatorship shitholes, but it's like having to choose between getting kicked in the balls really hard and getting shot in the head (just for context, I'm not one of the people who enjoy being kicked in the balls).
Every sane person in this situation would choose getting kicked in the balls, but that doesn't mean you're really happy about it.
I understand the concern and certainly believe that troll farms are slowly creeping into Lemmy as it gains traction. However, I think most of US bashing is authentic as it reflects the enormous impact of US political life on the rest of the planet. Moreover, other countries receive a constant flux of information about the US, to the point where it seems that US news is as important as domestic news. The fact that Trump remains omnipresent in the media doesn't help either.
I get this part, and I agree with a lot of critique. What I'm noticing is that it seems that I'm seeing more hate than valid objective critique. It seems to me that a lot of the anti-US comments are merely to criticize the US out of hate than to criticize a behavior.
Imagine it were people instead of countries. This is like being at a party with friends and Marcel is not present. Marlon shares that he likes coffee without creamer. Martiza says she does too. Misty then says, "Did you know that Marcel uses raw milk instead of creamer in his coffee? What a piece of shit. It wouldn't surprise me though. Everything he does is terrible. Remember, he cheated on Mariah in 2006. He's probably cheating on Merced right now." That's completely unnecessary and irrelevant.
That's what it feels like to me. It's not just critique. It's hate in discussions that are irrelevant to the US. That's been my observation at least, but I'm bringing it up to see if maybe I'm a bit too suspicious or paranoid.
Martiza says she does too. Misty then says, "Did you know that Marcel uses raw milk instead of creamer in his coffee? What a piece of shit. It wouldn't surprise me though. Everything he does is terrible. Remember, he cheated on Mariah in 2006. He's probably cheating on Merced right now."
I don't think those are good analogies. US foreign policy has really screwed up some other countries. It'd be more like "Remember when Marcel burned Mariah's house down? And that time Marcel got Misty fired from her job? And that time Marcel stole Merced's car?"
The US has had some very positive effects on the international community, but people tend to remember how the world's only remaining superpower screwed them over.
Lemmy was founded to be where anti-American Americans would go after a lot of their subs were quarantined on Reddit.
That said, it has a major American focus because a lot of users are angry with the American system and don't have a ton of experience with others directly. They've developed an echo chamber here and only got interrupted by the Reddit exodus.
Fuck the US hyper-centrism. If this place was so anti US, why are all the communities titled "News" and "Politics" exclusively for discussing seppo shit? This place is less US-centric than other platforms but is still extremely US focused. If you look for more than a second, you will find anti-russia, anti-china, anti-israel and anti-germany shit too (just to name a few). Finally, I just want to say, fuck the United States of America and everything that that hellhole represents. I am sorry that you have to live there
You are describing tankies. Not everyone who criticize the US is a tankie. Stay away from lemmygrad, hexbear, lemmy.ml, and you'll see legitimate criticisms of the US.
!AskUSA@discuss.online seems fine
Whenever something occupies the entirety of the media landscape, it's bound to have at least some legitimate detractors.
As for specific divisive propaganda, let's say Russia and China, yes it's there, but they're more sophisticated than just going "America bad". China usually sticks to generalized anti-western hegemony, and Russia usually goes the Newt Gingrich route of choosing wedge issues.
While there's a lot of "America bad" sentiments going around, a lot of it is legitimate opinions while others default to it due to their tankie background. I think the actual propaganda segment is fairly low.
I agree wholeheartedly. My assumption was that such behavior was simply a symptom of the relatively larger proportion of Europeans on this site, and their obvious jealousy and insecurity regarding Americans. I still believe that is the most likely explanation. To be clear, America has done hella dumb shit lately, and is deserving of criticism on many fronts. But what OP is referring to goes beyond that. It's emotional animosity that overflows the bounds of reasonable criticism and targets individuals rather than governmental decisions or policies.
The number of times that I have seen people refer to the American contribution to WWII as cowardice, meaningless, etc, is too damn high. 400,000 Americans died in that war. Read a fucking history book you ignorant, insensitive fucks.
It's certainly possible that there are agents in our midst sowing divisiveness, although unlikely. I don't have any beef with any nationality, because I don't judge people based on where they were born. That should be common sense, but it's apparently difficult for some people to wrap their heads around.
You think Europeans are jealous of Americans? You couldn't pay me to live there, especially with Trump in power.
their obvious jealousy and insecurity
don't judge people based on where they were born
very difficult to wrap your head around isn't it.
I'm not judging people based on where they are born, I'm judging them based on how they treat others. Treat people how you want to be treated, most people learn that concept in grade school.
Yes, thank you! This is what I was getting at. The critique isn't objective stuff. It seems deep-rooted and personal. It's not about being upset with an action or policy. It's hate.
I should have read this before I wasted my time writing the main response. I don't know who's more delusional the person who thinks Europeans are jealous of a country where most couldn't be paid enough to move or the person who thinks any of the critique I mentioned is objective (not even sure what non objective critique you've heard).
Counter hypothesis: OP and the person he's replying to here are in fact agents trying to create a rift between the US and the rest of the world by making us believe that the population there is actually this narcissistically stupid.
obvious jealousy and insecurity regarding Americans.
Oh hun. I guarantee you it isn’t that.
It's emotional animosity that overflows the bounds of reasonable criticism and targets individuals rather than governmental decisions or policies.
I’d be interested to see what communities you see that in because that is not my experience.
Unless… the individuals that you are referring to are the ones helping guide those same governmental decisions and policies, or are in other positions of influence or power. Then criticism is fair game.
I honestly feel like Lemmy got considerably less vitriolic toward Americans after the election.
I used to think Lemmy was too insignificant for Russian influents, but I'm not sure anymore.
America has made a LOT of mistakes, and started (or backed) plenty of wars/revolutions. We’re the only major industrialized nation without some form of healthcare for all. The gap between rich and poor is tremendous, and only growing larger. Our legal system has some flaws, to say the least. America is the richest, most powerful country in the world. We didn’t get that way by always making ethical decisions. There’s a great deal of legitimate criticism out there.
Plus, this is a worldwide site. If Americans themselves don’t always like how the country is run, why should people of other countries always speak positively of America?
The best thing you can do with your free speech, while you've still got it, is to exercise it as much as you can. Call them on their bullshit. Call EVERYONE on their bullshit. We need more people aware of the absurdity of the world we live in.
There is plenty to criticize the US about, and I say that as an American. We sure as shit are very, very far from perfect. The same is true for every country to varying degrees.
That said, yeah, I'm still suspicious of it and you should be too. People are always being manipulated to act against their own self interest and it would be wise to stop and consider the message and where it's coming from.
Plus, they don't even use the metric system, and I don't like their version of football!