My immediate answer was yeah why not, but then I read the comments about prison fences and realised I was missing some American specific context. The fence's at my schools were waist high with open gates. They were more of a boundary marker than anything else.
I'm from the US and this is what I remember from elementary school (the only school that had a fence in my case) in my case that would have been years 3-5
Fences are fine. Especially for young kids near the playground and streets.
Except the fact you need to maintain it (which will be in the form of a replacement every 73 years when enough kids get stabbed by it) and it needs to have enough exit points in case of emergency. It shouldn't funnel everyone to one spot in the front.
I could only image the amount of injured children at the elementary school I went to if they went without a fence. Young kids see the nearby gully and decide exploring it sounds like a good idea, up until they injure themselves and there are no adults around to help.
Sure, otherwise the
inmatesclassmates might escape.My schools were fenced in. Nothing threatening or intimidating, it was just chain link with a gate somewhere along it. Keeps the troublesome kids from running off, makes sure everyone can hear the bell, keeps weirdos from coming in during school. And when the school is right next to a forest, that's just sensible.
My elementary school had a chain link fence around the playground by the main road and the neighboring residential. Oddly, the back side by the neighboring farm only had a line of sparsly placed trees. I forget what they farmed. The area generally did tobacco, soy, and sweet potato.
Yeah but it depends.
An elementary school near me recently replaced their chest-height chain-link fence with a 10ft steel bar fence with spikes on top. There's some benefits to a fence, but the spikes just make it seem menacing. And I guess more abstractly, it communicates that school is a dangerous place that's walled-off from the rest of the world rather than a place that's just like any other part of society. This is in the USA, I should mention, so maybe the cynical message is more accurate.Depends. I went to a exurb elementary school and it didn't need a fence - walk through the woods until you get bored. However I've also seen schools where there is a busy road nearby and they need something to stop the kids that would run that way. (older kids would not, but very young will run without looking and a few special needs kids have no sense of what is safe)
I like a fence. But if you're going to do it, don't make it look like a damn prison. Whatever happened to a nice brick wall with some pointy ironwork on top of it? It serves the same function as a fence topped in razor wire. But it provides that function without making the place look like a prison. I know it's way more expensive than a chain link fence. But damn. What is the value of the damage done to the souls of all the students that have to go to school behind razor wire. All schools should be surrounded by big brick walls with pointy bits of cast iron on them. Now it's classy and doesn't feel like the fucking state penitentiary.
Well, you see, damaging the souls of students is kind of the point. Undamaged souls aren't submissive, and thus make bad wage slaves.
An interesting game to play when driving around the US is “Prison, or School?”
The rules are simple. When driving past any complex with tall fences, quickly blurt out if it’s a prison or school. Then look for signage or check a map application to verify.
You’d be surprised how often you’ll get the answer wrong.
Seems like an easy game, just guess school and you'll be right the vast majority of the time.
Unless you think there are more prisons than schools.
Dude from where I'm from schools are built like prisons by default: tall external walls, a single big black gate for entrance, ugly indoors without any personality, no locker rooms... We Don't have metal detectors though, only Americans have type of issues
They fenced my son's school this summer. Previously it was only the playground and field that was fenced. New fence is 4 ft high, no gates, just gaps at walk ways.
At first I was unhappy about it, feeling that it cut the school off from the community. But then my son and I arrived early one day and had his soccer ball, we were able to really play on a lawn that would have been too small without a fence. So I can see that the fence creates more usable space for the school. And I've come around.
Yay.
I'm in favor of them. Just from a utilitarian standpoint, it helps to be able to demarcate the bounds of a school so that you don't have random people just wandering up throughout the day mistaking a schoolyard for a park and causing disruptions. Moreover, it gives kids the freedom to roam relatively unsupervised during recess/break time without worry of them wandering off somewhere. In densely-populated areas, it's basically a necessity to fence off athletic fields as well to prevent any accidental damage to nearby property if a ball goes flying.
There's a lot that can be done to make school buildings feel less prison like, but a fence is just a fence and is innocuous enough.
I'm on the fence about it.
its sad really. the school system was supposed to sorta act as a public space. sorta like community colleges. kids in the day and adults at night. modern world is so messed up though.
I see no reason not to.
Just put a big sports ground in the back. That tends to have a fence anyways. You can leave the front an open area with buildings to each side. That'll provide another barrier without looking like a prison.
as someone who graduated fairly recently (school added the fences my junior year) it just makes that place feel like even more of a fucking prison. also, fences are easy to bypass so all it would achieve is making it harder to escape if a shooter did get in. on top of that shooters are typically students, so it doesn't keep them out to begin with. this means that the only two things it actually achieves are making students feel like they are in prison and keeping them on the premisis so the shooter can kill them even easier. the real answer to what the fences are supposed to do is to 1) put more effort into mental health stuff as that is often the main reason the shooter is doing it, and 2) teach kids to escape the school instead of teaching them to just kinda sit there. and before anyone replies taking about gun control, getting illegal stuff isn't that hard (see drugs), making guns isn't that hard (see luty submachine gun, or any 3D printed gun), and schools (including the entire campus) are already gun-free zones and have been for a long time. making things illegal does not stop people from getting them. the solution is to make people with mental conditions that make them dangerous to others get help, and to make the drills we already do better by teaching kids what will work, not what sounds nice.
See the sad thing is that almost your entire thoughts on this is centered around school shootings. Theres tons of other reasons schools might put up fences but to Americans kids deciding to ditch school and get into shit or getting themselves hurt or parents with custody disputes trying to gain access to their child when they shouldnt are just minor concerns.
my thoughts on that are centered around school shootings because that's the reason schools are adding fences. to address the points you mentioned though, during my senior year when we had a fully constructed fence people still skipped school all the time (same people that always were) so the fence did not help. the whole custody thing is better solved by the parent that should have custody letting the school know about the situation at which point the school will have a legal obligation to ensure the child's safety. shootings aside, this leaves only making kids feel like prisoners for potential changes the fence could make.
No, I think I will mention gun control. Because "it's still technically possible to get" is a world different from the dystopian American "anyone can get one at any time for extremely cheap prices with zero oversight" reality.
Exactly. People will cite the fact that gangs smuggle guns all the time. And that is true, organized crime outfits absolutely can smuggle guns. And yes, it is also possible to make a gun from a 3D printed gun frame and parts anyone can buy on the net. And you can make your ammunition. But that really doesn't translate to 16 year olds being able to get their hands on semi-automatic rifles and large quantities of ammunition. Just think for a second, actually think mechanically how that would work. Imagine we're in a country with widespread gun control, (but still with illegal weapons to be found/made), and we have some 16 year old white suburban kid looking to get a hold of a gun.
So we have our would-be school shooter, trying to get his hands on a gun. What are his options? Maybe he tries to buy one. He asks the guy he buys weed from if he knows how to get a gun. Do you think any dealer slinging weed to high school kids is going to want to help him with that? They're probably a student at that school. And criminals aren't complete idiots. What gang of hardened criminals wants to sell a rifle and ammunition to a random white kid from the suburbs? You know exactly what it's going to be used for. Gangs may be willing to take the risk of trafficking weapons to arm themselves, but they don't just sell guns to any random person looking to buy, let alone to someone that is clearly planning to do something horrible with it. In reality, if our would-be shooter actually manages to meet the kinds of people that traffic weapons, it wouldn't work well for him. At best, they turn him into the cops themselves. At worst, a 16 year old from the suburbs disappears never to be heard from again.
Ok, so if he can't buy one, can he make one? Maybe. But they would have to have an extremely a home life unmonitored to the point of violating child neglect laws. People can make quite functional 3D-printed gun frames, but it's a skill you develop. You have to go through multiple cycles of printing, fitting, reprinting, reprinting, etc. If you actually want to have a weapon that works, you essentially need a workshop. And specifically a workshop that no one but he ever accesses. Maybe some kid out on a farm could manage that if given a high degree of independence...maybe? But if you look at the home life of the typical school shooter, it is simply not the kind of environment that would be conducive to running an elicit weapons workshop. In all but the most extremely neglectful homes, a parent is going to see them working on firearms and immediately freak the fuck out. It's just really hard to hide the kind of setup needed to make a 3D printed gun. This setup is not beyond what can be done in a domestic hobby workshop, but it is not the kind of thing that you can easily hide or disguise. In the case of our hypothetical 16 year old, they would try to setup the equipment necessary. But they would be quickly caught. Oh, and then we need to include the whole elaborate mini forge setup needed to actually make your own rounds...
TL:DR: consider the mechanics of a hypothetical 16-year old shooter actually trying to obtain a semi-automatic rifle in a world with strict gun control. Considering either the "buy it" or "build it" scenario, it would be extremely rare for any 16 year old to be able to obtain a gun. And this is true even assuming that gun running and 3D-printed guns continue to exist.
it's not 'zero oversight', you have to get a background check and wait 2 weeks to get your gun even though you passed (this bit is kinda pointless), and other stuff as well depending on where you are and where you're getting it. all that is irrelevant though because all a gun is is a tube with a stick in the back that hits the primer on the bullet, meaning all you need to make one is some pipe and a drill. also once again, see drugs for an example of how people will continue to attain illegal things even though they are illegan.
Yes, and barbed wire, Czech hedgehogs, guard towers with snipers.
Jokes aside apart from preventing a ball flying into traffic during recess what are we trying to achieve?
how else are we supposed to have security theater preventing school shootings?
It's different everywhere in the US. I grew up in California. Graduated HS 1989. My elementary and high schools were completely fenced in while the middle school i attended was not at the time, but has been for some time now. Even in high school it was a closed campus and only Seniors were allowed to leave at lunch if their parents signed off on it. It was called "Senior Privileges." I had a friend that went to Highschool about 40mi from me and they had an open campus and everyone could leave at lunch. No clue how those decisions were made, but his HS had a literal smoking section on campus for students. The 80s were a different time.
FEMA has plans to utilize schools as mass holding pens for something like 5 million people if necessary, so its like a dual use thing.
Sounds interesting, can you link those plans?
I don't see much of a problem myself so long as it's actually for safety purposes and not just for detainment purposes at a normal school.
The elementary and middle school I went to had fencing to keep people out of backyards and the street, and a gully in the case of elementary school. Reasonable. Keeps minors safe just in case a car came by if a kid went to grab a ball they accidentally launched into the street or they decide to explore the fully and fall over and hurt themselves because little kids are good at disappearing and hurting themselves, I swear.
High school? Absolutely no idea why the football field had a fence other than keeping people off the property, which was connected to a park.
