Let's make Windows 10 the last version ever used!
Let's make Windows 10 the last version ever used!
Let's make Windows 10 the last version ever used!
*Sat. 28 Dec. 11h* Stage YELL #KDEEco 's Call To Action against e-waste driven by #Windows10.
*Mon. 30 Dec. 13-15h* B&B habitat join the BoF to organize a global #FreeSoftware campaign to raise awareness of Windows 10's EoL in 2025, the role of software in #eWaste, and how independent, sustainable #FOSS is a solution to keep devices in use & out of the landfill.
https://fahrplan.alpaka.space/jugend-hackt-38c3-2024/talk/ST8NJA/
@be4foss @kde Live stream of Joseph's talk: https://streaming.media.ccc.de/38c3/yell
Video recording will be available here:
As someone who is way into the idea of Linux, wants to switch, and is very gun-shy about the million little programs and extensions I might not be able to replace, let me tell you what is required of anybody who is actually genuine in their desire to see Linux gain the traction it deserves:
Don't ever tell anybody to read the manual again. Just answer the god damn question. It's good when answers to basic, common problems are peppered around the internet like that; it's dumb and wrong and weird to think of it as a thing to be avoided. If you'd like to put a link to the part of the manual where the questioner could have looked to find it, that's cool, too. Don't just leave the link--there's a good chance they didn't understand it and that's why they're asking. Maybe they just want a person-answer instead of a reference-manual-answer, and it's good when the answer exists in both forms. Every answered question is a contribution.
I would go even further: the version of reality where Linux beats Windows and ushers in an era of community-centric open source dominance is populated by a Linux community that considers "rtfm", "pebcac", etc to be borderline bannable offenses. If you are a small, weak person, and want Linux to be your way of thinking you're better than other people, you'll drive question-askers away, back to Inferiority Land, using your knowledge to dunk on them instead of help them, and call it a win. These are the ugly bridge trolls, who may as well be paid Microsoft employees, keeping people away from your community, and a serious change of pace might yield much smoother adoption. At the very least, the community owes it to their own work to see how much smoother.
As someone considering the switch seriously, the knowledge that I may have to deal with people like that is absolutely, 100% a factor, and I am someone who has no qualms about telling someone on the internet to fuck off, so it's gonna be more of an issue for many others who are more conflict-averse.
The Linux community needs to take very seriously whether it actually wants increased open source adoption, or if it wants to remain a tiny minority so that it has a nice, large majority to feel better than.
I hear ya. My theory is the Linux community is a world filled with autism. I am autistic (late diagnosed at 30, using Linux since 10yo). I think many of us are undiagnosed. I legit think if people just assumed a bit of neurodivergence in us you'll see we aren't hostile. We also need better manuals, such as video series', interactive tutorials and such. RTFM I agree is not welcome, but we do need these introductory materials (better than the arch wiki you autists) and we need high quality ones. I think that's a worthwhile investment, no?
I always try to help new users. I was a beginner once so I know how it feels to be told to rtfm by some cunt. Half the time I have an issue i'll search it up only to find some reddit post with someone asking the same question and getting shit on by elitists who have nothing going on in their own lives. In any case, if you ever need help I or someone else would be happy to help to the best of our ability.
Without offenses but it's important to read instructions for anything in this life, the wash machine, robot cooking, your daily medication, etc., all of them have instructions.
Most people that says "read the documentation" is also tired of people that can't read instructions how things works, and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
I feel Windows users lacks many documentation and people are used to click to .exe that claims to do what they need to do, or they just follow some random user on a forum.
When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming, I tell them to just read documentation. No need to pay for extra courses or YouTube videos, most of the time you can learn it better and up to date if you go to the documentation.
Then, after you did the proper search, it would make sense to open a post asking for help to gurus, telling them the steps you followed providing context and logs, if you don't do that, most experts would just ignore you if you can't spend time reading docs, they won't spend time solving your issue normally.
people that can't read instructions how things works
Pretty sure that's their point: If the instructions are too complex or intimidating, particularly if they're technically written, they may genuinely be unreadable to some users.
There's a certain effect where, if something seems overwhelming, particularly if you already feared it might be, that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And once the overwhelm starts, once it sounds even a little too complex for users to be confident in their understanding, the brain goes into panic mode and holds on to "aaaah I can't do this".
So yes, some people genuinely can't read instructions because static instructions don't talk to them, just at them, with no ability to respond and reassure if that panic hits. Human interaction often seems less intimidating because they can (ideally) respond to your confusion, reword just that part, hold your hand through the process, all of which instructions can't.
Throwing them into the pool and telling them to learn swimming doesn't help: It makes them want to leave. Learning to read docs is a skill itself that needs to be developed separately, but making it an entry barrier risks scaring people off before their investment of time and focus starts paying off.
and in this open source world everything minimum popular is well documented.
Are those docs written or proofread by noobs? My experience with tech people (including myself, unfortunately) is that we tend to think in specific trained (or perhaps intuitive to us) patterns that don't neatly map on how non-techies perceive and understand the world. If I try to explain something, I don't even know where there are parts that I'd need to simplify, explain differently, what metaphors I could use to help understand and so on.
Of course, techies do want those details I'd have to omit for non-techies. Some guides do really well with a "simple" and an "advanced" version of instructions. However, "documentation" doesn't always equal "guide", and some docs are really just a dry list of functiond and syntax, which brings us back to the topic of having to learn to read docs.
When someone asks me to teach them to learn to programming
...they're already past the first threshold of "This is all way too much, I'll never learn that". Anyone willing to engage with programming already has conquered - or never had - that initial fear of not understanding stuff. For them, docs might not be much of a barrier, and if they're well-written may be a good point for slightly more advanced stuff.
I'd argue they'll still need an initial intro to "how to think like a programmer" (or rather, "like a computer, and to solve backwards from that"), but in any case, they're not the target audience for "Linux as competitive desktop".
Non-techies are, and to them, tech may well be scary. We need to account for that and ease them in by whatever means work best for them, if we want them to come to us, not what suits us best.
Even home appliances don't come with the full spec technical manual. They come with the user manual so you'd know how to use your appliance, not how to fix your appliance (with the exceptions being some easy to fix user errors). When people get technical errors on their home appliances they call a technician to fix those errors, because most people lack the technical knowledge to fix things themselves. And I imagine it's the same for you. I'm pretty sure you don't fix your own car. Now imagine if you went to a mechanic to have your car fixed and they say "Just read the fucking manual and don't waste my time". What are you going to do? Read the manual that you didn't even know existed until that point and you'd first have to spend some time actually finding the manual (because some of those technical manuals are a fucking pain in the ass to find, if they're even readily available), or find another mechanic that would fix your car? What if all the mechanics tell you to go read the manual? How much of your own time would you be willing to invest into fixing an issue you didn't want to fix by yourself in the first place? What if someone offered to replace your entire car for free? Would you still spend time fixing your car or would you go "fuck it, I just need it to work"?
And that's the average Windows/Linux user. They just want an operating system that works. They don't want to understand all the technical stuff that goes on under the hood and when something breaks they want "a technician" to give them a quick solution, because knowing the inner workings of Linux is not a priority for them. Maybe they're the car mechanic that would fix your car and they've spent their time learning the inner works of a few dozen cars. People focus their time and attention on different things so getting angry at someone not wanting to learn Linux is like a car mechanic getting angry at you for not wanting to learn how your car works or a personal trainer getting angry because you don't know how your own body works etc.. Just because you know how Linux works does not mean everyone should know how Linux works.
This is why everything comes with a quick start 1 page guide AND a manual.
I think the single biggest issue I have with Linux is package management. Maybe this is purely distribution dependent, but for example in Ubuntu most of the packages are way outdated, not even on the latest stable version. Then I either have to:
- Build from source which means I gotta also install all dependencies and pray that the thing builds
- Add some rando PPA which I have no idea if I should trust
- Use "flatpaks" or "appimages"
None of those options are appealing. And along with these multiple options I end up having multiple versions of things installed in different locations in different ways and also my PATH ends up a big mess, I think I'm just doing something very wrong.
Flatpaks environment now is the closest to the Windows experience.
Open the app store (GNOME Software / KDE Discover), search, click install, click run.
Flatpak for the Win!
Get it? For the WIN?
That joke is so good you've been
snapped out of existence.aurful
So many cheap laptops are about to hit the market, and I'm ready for it.
My gaming desktop is the last barrier to a full transition, but I've been buying exclusively games with a Linux release for over a year now. Buckshot Roulette, Deep Rock Galactic, Hearts of Iron, Lethal Company, Project Zomboid... There's quite a few big ones.
Never thought Id upvote a KDE post...
What's not to love about KDE?
It not a tiling wm by default :(
I’m still using my thinkpad that’s 11 years running Linux mint beautifully.
I'm doing my part.
I unregistered my Win 10 key last Sunday and removed the SSD. All my IT is Windows free.
I’m still rocking a 2010 dual Xeon Mac Pro. I have no desire to use anything else. That plus my Steam Deck are good enough for me.
That's what they don't understand.
Every year is the year of the Linux desktop, that's why we say it every year.
~random 4chan post I'm surely misquoting
I would really love it if we could get normal people using Linux but Linux has to come to them in terms of usability, to be honest. The Steam Deck did it, so it's clearly doable.
But in the state of things we're in, I'm afraid that *most people* are gonna follow Windows to Windows 11. and their understandings of how computing is will be mutilated by it.
and therefore we get more anprims per capita, because if you think that's not at least in part downstream of big tech fuckery you're lying to yourself
Linux ain't the problem there. Usability is more of that nonsense thought up by corporations to scare people. Computers are tricky, whether Windows or Linux, and the only reason Windows is more popular is they've been installing it on people's computers without asking for decades. Honestly most people don't even have computers these days. All they get to have is a phone.
CC: @be4foss@floss.social @kde@lemmy.kde.social @NafiTheBear@bears.town
I agree. I am quite comfortable with computers but, since I have switched to Linux about 10 years ago, I struggle any time I am asked for help on a Windows system.
It's not intuitive at all. Among the quirks, there are still 2 separate control panels that overlap, but not completely, then you have ever-buggy OneDrive, invasive notifications, a convoluted Start menu, …
People find it simple only because they are used to it.
@gyro @be4foss @kde the goal of that event is very ambitious I agree, but if I see that alone this year I myself made 4 friends and my mom to move to Linux then getting Linux to a solid market share and minimalising waste is a practicable goal.
I wouldn't say it was easy. It is hard work and explaining a normal person what the difference between X11 and Wayland is is next to impossible.
There will be some people who just can't afford a new PC and we basically just need to help them.
@gyro @be4foss @kde @NafiTheBear i think a significant amount of people are going to just not bother buying another laptop once their Win10 one sucks too much, because they're on their phones for everything these days
It's certainly an interesting move from the side of Microsoft. Discontinuing W10 will certainly lose them some marketshare.
@kyle_pegasus
@be4foss @kde @NafiTheBearWell that's depressing, that gonna put us so much further away from ever making things good again
You're quite late. I don't know if you've heard, but they've got Windows 11 now. There are people using it. Not me, but people.
All true. The point is that win 11 doesn’t support a lot of old hardware that’s perfectly usable, just doesn’t have TPM2.0 chips built into them. There are some hacks around it, but it takes a great deal of desire and proficiency to make them work.
W11 is like vista, all frills and no substance. Some people will skip the upgrade due to slowness (it's slow with i7+16gb sometimes) and in case of users who use chrome only, ChromeOS flex or its siblings could be a solution.
I just want a Windows base kernal that I can build my own OS off of. My own DE, my own programs, I want DX12 and NT. I want File Explorer and driver support for days.
But I also want freedom to not have a giant open hole where my data just dumps into a Microsoft cloud environment.
I relent, I need to switch. the proposed bullshit has gotten to much for even me, the world's laziest man.
Just a lazy man in a worky world. Should have been born a Limited Liability Corporation.
Just used the kid as a guinea pig. All AMD rig, Bazzite with Gnome to make it a little more UI familiar for him. It's pretty much a gaming only station but he's had zero issues.
Linux is ready for the webbrowser. Office? No, MS Office does not run and still the marketshare for MS Office is very high on Windows. It does not run on Linux. If the alternatives were better then people would use them. Gaming? Maybe for Steam OS but that is only one distro. If you choose something else you will not have such smooth experience. The user might be better off by moving to console. Any business tool like Adobe or custom built Windows tools does not work. This is very hard to change. Hence many can't even move to mac os due to this. Media Player/View Pictures? Yes, Linux is ready here.
Can you choose to have Linux pre installed on a new laptop? No, not normally.
There is still some work to do. I hope we get there. We are close for home users.
Personally I use Fedora with Firefox.
If the alternatives were better then people would use them
No. You are underestimating the power of a monopoly.
And Microsoft software comes pre-installed on every shelf computer.
Yes, trail period of MS Office. But when it runs out then they have to choose what to do. Buy or pick anything else? I think the problem here is that they know they will get full compatibility with others if they buy MS Office. MS Office does not even follow their own protocol standard. Some know that the webbased version is free. That makes it really hard to compete. I hope EU fix this.
Computers can be bought off-the-shelf with operating systems other than Windows from a few vendors including Apple, Dell, System76, and others.
Linux isn't ready for the mass Market yet. I say that as someone that has been a Windows free household for like over 8 years and who actively attempts to convert as many of my friends as I can.
It is not and probably never will be general market ready. Too fragmented and too many options. Which is why I love it so I wouldn't want it to change either.
It is ready if you start learning it from children, but people first touches a Windows machine, and then they get used to what they already know.
Example of someone that never touched a Windows, post from 2 years ago: https://duncanlock.net/blog/2022/04/06/using-windows-after-15-years-on-linux/
And I read people that claims they are better on Ubuntu because is what they first started to use (because of lack of money) and now they find it hard to use Windows, because they got used to Linux and they aren't either programmers.
Maybe what Linux needs is marketing. The Steam console is an example of how well it sells.
Some Valve documentation was released concerning third party hardware shipping with SteamOS. Big if true.
there are loads of options, but if you ask almost any linux person what distro you should start with, the answer is mint
Can it run substance painter yet?
Substance painter has always ran on Linux, has it not?