I just had a good interaction with someone on blahaj. Without going into too much detail, they had posted posted some inflammatory (as in meant to invite "dunking" by hexbears) imperialist apologia, got called out on it by some of our users and some blahaj users, and then deleted it and posted something positive instead. Some of our users (including me) exchanged good vibes and best wishes for our communities to live in peace and a negative interaction transformed into a positive one.
I know, this is pretty much the best outcome for a situation like this. And of course, we have seen some extremely bad faith words and actions by some users on other instances, but I would like to see this less common outcome become a more common one (and for us to stay federated!).
I don't want us to give up our culture and our principles either! Many users on other instances aren't used to seeing our kind of politics at all. When you're talking to someone in real life do you immediately break out the Stalin portrait and the budenovka and launch into heated polemics against things they had considered just basic facts about reality? I would love for that to continue on our instance, but I think we should cultivate an approach of carefully considered discussion on others (when we can). It's definitely possible to be a communist or an anarchist without being so antagonistic all the time. Our political thought and practice flow from the basic experiences of working class people which mostly everyone can relate to.
That being said, what I said really only applies to people who don't mind living in peace with us in the Fediverse. I think that's most people on other instances. At least from what I've seen, the worst of the arguments and struggle sessions that happen on other instances were exacerbated to that level by just a few bad actors in the other communities. One of them was even very obviously using multiple accounts to draw hexbears in (who can't resist a good dunking lol) and turn the thread into a mess. It's a good idea to consider whether using the PPB on some troll's self-debunking argument is worth it or not, especially when they may be trying to make our community look bad rather than trying to prove any actual point.
Unless we avoid contributing to more incidents it's likely more instances will defederate from us. Some of these are probably unavoidable just because of the personal attitudes of the admins there (like with lemmy.world). And we will also probably become more insulated again if that happens. Some of us think that's a good thing and that's fine, but personally I like seeing and engaging with all the nice furry, LGBT, tech, etc. content from other communities! And I like seeing new users here.
Now if you read all that you should probably go touch grass for at least a few minutes hehe. Mandatory reminder that all this doesn't really matter much politically, the Fediverse is a small community within a small community, go do real life stuff with people, and so on and so on.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on all this. I have to go now but I'll be back later.
Edit: :(
It sucks we had to defederate but I support the decision after seeing some of the stuff that happened. Fuck that 196 mod and fuck liberals harrassing our queer users for not sharing their imperialistic hegemonic omnicidal worldview.
I'm just tired of every post on the frontpage being about the federation itself. I don't care if some lib occasionally posts a bad take. There have been many cool people from other instances.
And I'm getting annoyed by hexbear's obsessive need to "dunk" on lemmy users, it's approaching le epic reddit army levels. And the sanctimonious rationalizing of it, as if it wasn't just a fun tribal activity but actually totally fighting the good fight.
Who fucking cares if blahaj or whatever think we're evil tankies who run over people with tanks in our free time? I'm tired of every post on the frontpage being hexbears patting each other on the back for sending PPB to some liberal. I don't mind federation itself, but I hate how its melting hexbear brains.
I'm just tired of every post on the frontpage being about the federation itself.
If this is anything like the reddit migration wave over on the sh.itjust.works side of the fence, it'll die down. Reddit was all anyone there could take about for like 2 weeks until it was no longer the shiny new thing that everyone was talking about.
And I'm getting annoyed by hexbear's obsessive need to "dunk" on lemmy users
Completely agree. The best conversations I've seen between hexbear users and the wider fediverse have been exactly that: conversations. Exchanges of ideas, and why both sides think the way they do. Hopefully that becomes the norm. I may not agree with all the stances I've seen around here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the majority of you guys are communicating in good faith.
I can provide a little insight here, perhaps: from the average Hexbear dunker's point of view, it's a little like you're an astronomer and all you've been talking about for the last three years is astronomy and all sorts of scientific studies and your average discussion is like "Well, actually, I believe the percentage uncertainty in the diameter of Alpha Centauri's orbit around the galactic center may be off by 2% due to these newly discovered variables..." and then one day, your community is joined at the hip to a bunch of flat earthers. So if somebody comes to your instance (or even if you see a take in a different instance) and says something like "these astronomers are such fucking gullible idiots, holy shit. the level of denialism that the Earth is a flat disc, which is what everybody agrees on, and that the stars aren't just satellites, is unbelievable. have these people never read a single book? we have a bunch of respectable flat earther philosophers and scientists and they instead hide away in their tiny conspiracy websites posting 'studies' to each other. ok, if the stars are real, explain why they aren't all as big as the sun then, as you seem to think the sun is also a star. owned with your own logic, moron."
and it's like, holy shit, I have spent the last three years doing so much learning about all these different things and systems and histories, and seeing somebody come along with arguments that have been debunked for years, no, decades, no, over a century, and they repeat them and expect them to be "owns" or something? they're calling me the moron? these people have literally no idea what they're talking about!
(like, I used to be one of those "we need to oppose authoritarian governments and promote democracy and freedom and justice for the poor people living in those countries" people and now I'm just very embarrassed about that opinion, it's barely even scratching at the surface of a vast ocean of so much history and philosophy and economics. it's the Dunning-Krueger effect in action.)
and even in their more concillatory posts, it's like "Fine, we need to learn to coexist. I certainly don't support their blatant conspiratorial authoritarian nonsense - sorry, opinion - that the Earth is round, but maybe we can have a discussion and come to some compromise that maybe stars are real and far away." and you're still grumbling because they're still obviously, just, wrong. Like, unequivocally just still incorrect.
so you basically have the option of being one of those scientists who are like "Hey! It's nice that you're making scientific arguments about the consequences of a flat earth theory, but maybe we can help you out by talking about the mechanics of how a round earth might work, and it might even make more sense than a flat earth!", or, more likely, you're exhausted already and you think that no amount of niceness and reasoning is going to get through to them so you just start calling them names and shit and hoping that the dunking will be enough to make them see the errors of their ways, but even if they don't, it at least might make them leave you alone.
that being said, I think it's best to approach people at the level of their own good faith while on the instance you're on, and be even slightly more polite than them on foreign instances. so if somebody comes along on Hexbear from another instance and is like "Hey, I've heard a lot of things about Venezuela/Cuba/China/etc, are these true?" then dunking on them would obviously be inappropriate (and to be fair, most of us already know to not dunk in that situation). But if somebody comes on here and starts saying that, for example, downplaying the negative impact that the Democrats had on America's response to coronavirus, or starts saying shit like "The CCP is a bunch of redfash," then nobody should be surprised if we get angry at them and start spamming PPB.
But if I heard those two things on foreign instances, I might not be particularly nice to them, but I might at least explain my position and why they might be wrong. If they then continue to be morons without trying to rise to my level of good faith, then my patience will wear thin.
I agree. Picking up the ocassional solid comrade is worth any number of libs. And this is the most excitement we've had in a long time.
It's really frustrating how some people seem to be intent on defederating and unwilling to adapt or cooperate. And also like, the difficulty we're having integrating is part of why we should integrate. We've become too insular and we need to remember how to talk to people on the outside again. It's healthy for us.
Honestly might consider switching instances if y'all ruin this.
I was mildly against federation, but didn't care too strongly either way. I still think most instances are going to defederate us after varying degrees of song and dance amyway - with some already laying the groundwork like lemm.ee and others being infiltrated by explicitly anti-left, anti-Hexbear troll mods like Lemmy.ml and the fallacy alt accounts guy. Now that it's here (for a while) my rationale is to make the best of it and peel off as many potential comrades or curious onlookers as possible that would otherwise be adrift in a sea of bigotry, US-centric chauvanism, and dreadful Reddit clones. Some will stay for a bit, some for longer, and maybe some will become our new top-tier posting generals. And I'll enjoy a change of scenery in other instances now and again too.
Hi! First post here. I'm a sh.itjust.works user who saw a lot of very well-thought out and cited comments from you guys on lemm.ee and blahaj. On my main account, I can see your stuff but you can't see mine, so I thought I'd make an alt just to say that I do appreciate the thoughtfulness and patience you've shown on the wider fediverse as a group (at least that I've seen)
I consider myself a relatively moderate socialist, but I'm always willing to hear out perspectives and ideas that disagree with mine, and change my mind if suitably compelled by the facts.
We'll soon change that, with a little help from our spooky propaganda mind control tactics of long posts, linked sources, and ...gasp... engaged conversation.
So, related, I had an idea... I noticed they have a comm over there for people to introduce themselves. Would it be a terrible idea for people here who want to interact with them positively to make posts on that comm? I was thinking of doing one myself either tomorrow or Saturday talking about hobbies, interests, etc., and maybe find like minded people. I was thinking that maybe if they got to know some of us a little better, we'd be a little less scary to them and they might be more willing to interact with us. What do you think?
I also think is a great idea for a comm and maybe something we should have over here for the same purpose.
i miss the safety and coziness pre-federation though. now i log onto hexbear and the default sort makes it so that most of my feed is stuff i don't care about, like "linus tech tips" drama, or upsetting shit (i.e., bad faith liberalism) from other instances. even the posts on the "local" tab seem to refresh slower than before, as if most of hexbear's posting activity has been exported to new communities we have access to (which is good in many ways, and i've learned a lot from seeing hexbear users engage with other communities).
like many neurodivergent people, i have trouble adjusting to change. and right now, i am really missing the cozy, accepting, and at ease vibes i got from hexbear pre-federation. i log on now, and there's new kinds of tension and unease that i haven't found out how to work around (or live with) yet. It comes both from seeing posts from other communities in my feed (many of which feature gross and hateful mischaracterizations of our community, beliefs, or values), as well as seeing users from other communities come into ours and engage in bad faith. it just feels like a lot of drama, tbh
like i can go and touch grass, and i do touch grass regularly , but i liked the hexbear that was far away from grass, like a cozy little nest tucked away on the upper branches of a tree