Just goes to show Democrats (in general) either don't know or don't care about all that imminent danger they kept going on about. Their privilege insulates them in both cases, and they don't care that we will run towards theocracy and authoritarianism—with the rest of us bearing the brunt of it all.
I don't think both parties are the same, but I do think Democrats are complicit by failing to do anything substantial to prevent this slide into fascism, naively acting like "playing fair" with people using guerilla tactics and chasing moderate voters on the right was viable strategy.
What do you suggest they do?
Advocate for popular policy (like stop funding genocide)
Until Republicans go full fascist and start locking up their political enemies, Democrats will keep taking their payoffs while watching the rest us suffer.
Change the first word to "while" and you're right. It's already a fascist party and the Dem leadership is still doing business as usual.
TLDR I think personally I am still in the wait and defend myself camp. That seems to be a more useful strategy. It seems like labeling the Democrats as complicit goes against that. If the Democrats are complicit does that mean we would support them, Biden specifically, in a civil war? That's not a rhetorical question by the way.
Can someone or a political party for that matter be said to be complicit through incompetence? The Democrats are definitely incompetent. Their reaching for moderate Republicans strategy is a useless failure that isolated their progressives base.
Biden, the Democratic consultants, and the Democrats in general seem more comparable to British PM Neville Chamberlain or German President Paul von Hindenburg than a Nazi collaborator like French civil servant Maurice Papon. Chamberlain and Hindenburg thought they could curb Hitler's worst impulses and policies. They were wrong where as Papon actively helped Hitler.
We can't live in a house made of good intentions. But is it useful to raise incompetence to the level of collaborator(which If I'm not mistaken is what complicity implies)?
At the risk of getting my ego involved, I'll use myself as an example. I spent my time trying to get a Biden-Harris ticket and then a Harris-Walz ticket election win this cycle. My incompetence is different than the democrats, but it is incompetence none the less. Am I complicit in my own destruction since despite my best intentions and efforts the fascists took power? I did everything I knew how to do given the time and resources I had at my disposal.
The Democratic consultants are payed to be incompetent, but I'm not convinced they realize that. Merrick Garland could have moved faster to take punitive action against Trump. Biden could have appointed someone else or when Garland dragged his feet kicked him out and got someone else. Mitch McConnell and senate Republicans seem to think they can curb Trump's worst impulses and policies.
Unlike myself, all of these elected politicians have power. Biden in particular has, in theory, sweeping immunity thanks to the Supreme Court. However, if Biden stopped the peaceful transfer of power and sent Trump to Guantanamo Bay there would be domestic terrorism at best and civil war at worst. Are we saying Biden, at this point, is complicit if he does not do this? Are we saying we would side with Biden in a civil war or in suppressing civil unrest?
To put it bluntly if Biden stopping fascism through executive action is what morality demands of him are we going to be riding with Biden? Because without popular support Biden isn't lasting long with such a move. These are the questions that come to mind when I see the statement the Democrats are complicit. To be clear, the statement in question is not that they should be shamed, Democrats should be shamed, but that they are complicit.
So my non-rhetorical question is, is it useful rhetoric to say the Democrats are complicit in fascism? Are we prepared to argue that Biden should preemptively arrest this incoming administration? If that happened would you report strangers, neighbors, friends, family, and/or a spouse to the FBI if they said they were going to rebel against Biden?
Biden is complicit in genocide. I was still willing to vote for him and told people to vote for him. There were people on lemmy who were not willing to vote for and/or argue for Biden's second term. I'm sure many of those people will agree with your argument that the Democrats are complicit in fascism. I doubt those people would be willing to fight with Biden in a civil war. They seem to want to the US to burn to the ground along with the 340 million people who live here.
I am an American and I would like to see my country and the people who live here survive. Whether we in theory took a proactive approach to stopping fascism or reactive approach to defending against fascism, it seems like a bad time. If Biden cracks down on MAGA and the rightwing infosphere it seems like everyone will turn on him. If Biden doesn't and Trump takes power it seems like everyone will wish Biden had, but it will be too late.
This turned into more of a rant than I meant too, but I think these questions are worth discussing in the time before January 20th, 2025. I see people relying on legal arguments, on youtube, to argue that Trump's second term wont be that bad. I don't want to name names because I respect those people and what they do is critical to counteracting the right-wing infosphere. But, again, they seem to be relying on the idea that the fascists wont be able to enact fascist policies because the law will stop them. Or at least limit the fascists. The law hasn't stopped Trump and MAGA so far. And it seems like with each small step the law will limit the fascists less and less.
People have already had to defend themselves against the fascists in the MAGA movement. More of us are likely going to be put in a similar position. It seems like we're better off defending ourselves after Trump gives the order to send us to the camps. All the evidence from recent conflicts seems to show that the aggressor loses popular support quickly. However it seems like with this peaceful transfer of power next January we are about to test the limits of what popular support can do. Especially if Trump can drone strike the population into submission with immunity. But despite that, that risk seems unlikely, and thus waiting and defending ourselves is the more useful strategy.
Saying the Democrats are complicit seems to argue against that strategy. Because there doesn't seem to be anything else Biden or the Democrats could do at this point to stop Trump that doesn't involve relying on Presidential immunity. Democrats in Congress would need Republicans to use Section 3 of Amendment 14 to block Trump and there doesn't seem to be any chance of that happening.
They're complicit through willful ignorance. You can't beat the drum of fascism, parade Project 2025 around and rightly point out that it's a theofascist manifesto and blueprint, then run the campaign they ran. I wanted to vote for Kamala, and I had to pump myself up by the end. They took a gigantic wave of enthusiasm and pissed it away by playing it safe. That wasn't Prosector Harris going against felon, rapist, fraud Trump. That was Biden's shadow by the end, and they let Republicans tie her to Biden's actions as president.
They weren't trying to win; they thought, "Surely, Americans have sense and won't vote for that guy." Credulous fools.
To your other questions: would I be on Biden's side in a civil war? Probably, yes. But I'm not hoping for a civil war or for Biden to do anything authoritarian—what I want is for him and the rest of the Democrats, not just the handful of firebrands, to collectively represent our pain. If they can't say the quiet part out loud because of "decorum," then they are failures as leaders.
And that's why they lost. Fuck decorum. They haven't given anyone reason to hope in a long time. People voted for Biden, because they created their own hope by voting for not-Trump, but Biden himself didn't give the average person reason to hope, a reason to be excited for the future of the country (despite actually doing some good domestically).
Trump, on the other hand, gives his faithful reason to hope. He'll (allegedly) crush their nebulous enemies and punish those they feel are deserving. He'll restore some vague time when queer people "didn't exist," women didn't work, and there were only two legal genders. Christianity will be used to indoctrinate children in public schools, and every busybody with spare time will get to decide what books we're all allowed to read and which bathrooms we get to use. Like, he's gonna make good on at least some of that, all while plundering taxpayer money before their very eyes, and they'll let him, because he did the other things they wanted.
So yeah. I don't expect them to start a civil war, but they are complicit by regularly and frequently failing to treat the threat Trump poses seriously, and they are squandering yet another opportunity to build their base by mirroring the pain the rest of us are feeling.
ETA: and I can only assume that's because their privilege gives them the ability to not care that much.
Are you suggesting we have our own insurrection party?
Sure.
If Democrats are just gonna become Republicans Lite or continue doing more of the same "status quo" nonsense that lost them all three branches of the government, I'm down for something new.
This is bait
I blame the voters, not the campaigns.
I am tired of all blame going to the marketing, and forfeiting any concept of agency in each individual voter’s decisions.
The depressing thing is, I’m aware of how unrealistic it is to yell every voter into making better decisions for their, and others’, lives.
Bullshit.
The democrats could have easily passed electoral reform and given 3rd parties equal access to the electoral process in the states they controlled. Then there would have been multiple attempts to defeat the republicans each election.
Democrats would prefer the nation fall to authoritarianism over having to compete for your vote on a fair playing field.
Party over country, till the day the country dies.
Yeah, there are lots of people doing everything they can to abdicate themselves because they stayed home, or voted third party in protest (and then spent hours on Lemmy telling people why voting for Harris is actually just as bad for Palestine)...
And that means blaming everyone but the voters themselves. They can't take personal responsibility, because that would involve admitting the role they've played (and are about to have played) in the extermination of the Palestinian people (among every other horrific thing that happens domestically).
I don't think both parties are the same, but I do think Democrats are complicit by failing to do anything substantial to prevent this slide into fascism
Wow. Tough room.
Could have expanded SCOTUS, could have had an actual primary, could have run Harris's campaign as a populist option for change rather than Biden 2.0... Like, even just looking at the campaign, they had a wave of momentum and squandered it.
People are scared and beaten down; they know things are broken, and they're looking for leaders who will shake things up. Unfortunately, most people are apparently too dumb to realize that simply voting for the "candidate of change," that Trump represented, doesn't mean it will be the kind of change they would probably want. Would that voters could have had two candidates of change to choose from, but alas.
And here we are, as Democrats are largely silent and a dyed-in-the-wool fascist takes over. They will continue to sit in their ivory towers, wring their hands, and learn all the wrong lessons from this utterly embarrassing loss to a fraud and a felon.
What we need to be asking is, if everyone wants healthcare, better wages, and cheaper housing, then why are we fighting about trans and not having absolute agreement on every other detail?
We’re SUPPOSED to fight amongst ourselves. Per the corporate buyers of both the DNC and RNC. Dance puppets dance. And we do.
Also known as: "Surrender."
Remind me what war was it again?
The side that lost in 2020 is the side that likes to resort to violence to solve what they see as the problems in society.
The side that lost in 2024 believes the things they say about civil behavior, adherence to the rule of law, and fucking democracy.
And just like last time, the second group willingly hands over power to the first.
The "paradox" of tolerance gets us every time.
Fascism deserves no quarter in civilized society, and as soon as we even pretend that it's a legitimate ideology, we give it power.
We need to learn from 1930s Germany. You don't just give your country to fascists.
Democracy only works if all (or at least the vast majority of) parties agree that the democratic system itself is more important than any one democratic outcome. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case . The right will go into full on election denial mode when they lose, and apparently most American voters are fine with that. Peaceful transfer of power, what that means and why it's important, well, that doesn't affect the price of milk and eggs so voters are apathetic to it. Democracy grants voters the power to kill democracy. Time will tell whether that's what they did (knowingly or not) in 2024.
Sure. Too bad that's all going to end.
adherence to the rule of law
Both brands of usaian fash fervently support the violent control of people and things.
Republican and Democrat both end in flaming death ball 2060. I guess we're gonna be on fire and racist, instead of just... on fire.
I still voted Dem, because it's falling with style, not, dive-bombing headfirst into the concrete, but don't think we really had a better future, just a softer crash.
Scientists at MIT predicted 2040 to be the year of societal collapse… so much sooner than you’re expecting. I don’t imagine it will be overnight either. It will be this gradual slide. A decade from now you’ll be boiling twig stew before you have to report to your 16 hour shift at the lithium mine that is all but dried up.
Harris is gonna remove a really fancy latex mask and be resurrected zombie Reagan.
Politicians work together to profit from the same evil slaver system. It's not much of a change at all. They just say that during the elections. Then they continue working together pleasantly afterwards. People gotta be extra brainwashed to believe the myths of the state (eg. democracy).
Something...something...project 25.
But yeah, both sides are definitely the same.
