To all of these enlightened centrists in the comments: Just make sure to get down off the fence before the barbed wire goes up.
We are already at the point of campus grounds fenced up against protesting at multiple places,
Nazi germany had grocery stores. We won’t notice democracy ending.
Neoliberalism in the early 90s pulled in a few people from the Republican party, cost a shit ton of voters who had been faithfully voting D for their whole lives, and despite never really pulling anymore voters than that initial wave, the DNC still wants to continue the march to Reagan era trickle down economics hoping they can guilt trip voters because Republicans have gone absolutely insane on social issues to differentiate.
Meanwhile a candidate with an actual "centrist" economic policy isn't something we've been able to vote for in a generation, let alone someone that would be described as "leftwing" in any other 1st world country. Because the billionaires donate to both parties to ensure they always win.
The only difference were allowed to have these days is social issues, and apparently it's so bad now that genocide is one of the things the American public isn't allowed to have a day in anymore.
Political centrism and moderation in the Democratic party didn't begin with neoliberals.
Look, centrism is a real thing. There are people who really do like to analyze each and every problem from a more or less unbiased viewpoint and form strong opinions without the influence of ideology, while being ready for a compromise. Anyone who was serious about being a centrist I ever talked to defined their ideology this way.
With that being said there also are right-wingers who like to masquerade as centrist or sometimes moderate left just so they can use their supposed position to more effectively plant their ideas and try and normalize them.
But the thing I'm sick and tired of is when people try and pretend that this is true for every centrist, while ignoring the real problem that there are radical elements that try to masquerade as moderate ones and in doing so are polarizing and actively destroying our society.
Being centrist in America is just being right wing then generally. America is very skewed to the right globally
This view only works in a world where the right and left have a common view of reality and a common agreement on what the outcome should be, they just disagree on how to get there.
Which is why being centre-left or centre-right makes logical sense, since the positions and policies within those halves are consistent with their perception of reality and desired outcomes. And being unbiased about which position to pick within those ideologies is perfectly reasonable.
But being a centrist between the left and right doesn't make sense, as the view of reality and goals is entirely distinct. There's no middle ground between "cutting social services for the poor because you believe poor people deserve to be poor, and that hierarchical societies are inherently right", and that "we should increase social spending to help those that are less fortunate because an equal society is inherently just".
There is. It goes like this:
Deficit spending is fucking us as a nation. We cannot add new programs that we cannot afford. I neither believe that total equality is a good thing, nor that absolute hierarchy is a good thing. But having a well-structured hierarchy that facilitates movement around the hierarchy is valuable both from a structural standpoint and from a social standpoint.
Poor-specific social programs should be cut, and replaced with a UBI that is pulled from a universal (including stocks, bonds, etc) sales tax.
A federal health insurance that negotiates with medical suppliers to reduce costs, and that requires hospitals to charge the actual costs.
Being ideologically in between the left and right doesn't mean that the left and right will provide reasonable options to vote for - just that you'll vote for them if you can.
As you've seen with the massive inflation due to bank bailouts and covid spending (money just printed), we literally must stop the deficit spending, or else the economy will grind to a halt - like with covid, but way worse.
But centrism isn't about finding the geometric mean of the two sides it's about analyzing each problem separately, making compromises and initiating slow change.
I'm definitely center. There's a ton of stuff I disagree with the majority of Lemmy on. (At least my home instance .world). That's because reality is nuanced, not all progressive politics work, or left politicians good.
But I'm not stupid, both sides clearly are not the same. Both bad in unique ways (from an American perspective that is) but one side is so much worse than the other to such a extreme degree that most of their politicians and even to a smaller degree their followers are just not worth the time of day.
I wish we lived in a world where we could all get along and have differing ideas without everyone getting all mad. Sadly we don't. So I play the line, that way my family can hopefully get the best outcome. It's all I can do.
The problem with you is Center in America is right wing everywhere else, so you aren't doing the good you think you are doing
I feel the same. I considered myself just left of center but if the political compass site is to be believed im about halfway from center to the max extreme for both econimic left and social libertarianism. So I guess im fairly over but I still wonder if that site is still effected by current days because I feel like back in the 70's so much was considered more of a central view.
Alot of this is due to the changes of the times. More people lean harder on both sides nowadays, or so it feels. The political landscape has changed alot since back then.
No idea what to make of all that though. Politics are hard.
Reality is nuances and America is big. Like REALLY big. I don't think a lot of the policies that are important to big cities make as much sense in rural areas and vice versa.
There are big pictures issues, like women's rights, gay rights, and trans rights that need to be protected across the country.
Then there are gun control policies that don't make a lot of sense in towns of 300 people but seem like common sense in cities with millions of people.
Personally, I believe we need to work on cutting out the people and saboteurs who are willfully, vehemently, and incessantly trying to divide us. Those that are doing their damnedest to try and make each other the enemy.
Hard agree.
As someone that grew up most of my life in a tiny, rural Ohio area. There are so many strange laws that extend from the cities, many of which can outright just be bad for the area.
Policy wise, local democrats are rarely liked and seen as weak in rural areas, which in my experience is usually correct, unfortunately. The Republicans are always money grabbers but generally get things done.
Frankly the system sucks.
Ewww no. Fuck balance. Go hard when you can, mitigate losses when you can't.
I'll count on you to do that.
I mean, damn, I consider myself a centrist but that basically means “not a worthless shitheel asshole traitor in the bag for russia and against doing anything for the American people”. I think gummint should GTFO peoples lives (so fuck off with your shit about gay people and religion and abortion) and pay its fucking bills (so fuck off with your tax cuts and spending). And it’s fucking absolutely asinine that any mentally defective degenerate can get a goddamn semiautomatic weapon, are you fucking nuts?
It doesn't really sound like you want the government to get out of people's lives. Fair taxation, defending protected classes, and gun regulation are all very hands-on, and I agree that they're all important. The real thing right wingers mean when they say "small government" is "no regulation for corporations or states" so they can be as authoritarian as they want locally and the rich don't need to pay taxes. Banning gay marriage, controlling reproductive rights, and immigration control are not small government tasks, they're just tasks they want the authority to mandate on a state level since they know they'll never get the entire country on board.
What I wish more "centrists" would realize is that no one in the country, except anarchists, actually want small government, because they can't enforce control over the things they don't like without it. Rules for thee, not for me.
Don't try to put me into one of your boxes please.
A 2 party system is a bad idea.
I'm not from the US but I would describe myself a a left leaning centrist. The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
If you map the parties based on left/right and progressive/conservative my vote is definitely center left and high progressive.
The US has a political system that sucks, where you only have 2 real options. A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
Part of the problem with American politics is that you've got a set of centrist policies (fund public education and health care, regulate hazardous businesses, guarantee some degree of public safety, high speed mass transit, business friendly borders) that are significantly different from actual policy that the Congressional consensus reaches (privatization of education and health care, business deregulation, privatization of security, mass transit neglect, borders that are hostile to trade and travel for anyone who isn't a corporate entity).
A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
I haven't seen that bare out in the European block. Christian Democrats dominated German politics for decades, despite a multi-party system. The Netanyahu government has built coalitions that lean further and further to the right, until he's embraced outright fascism to stay in power. Taiwanese parliamentarians openly brawl on the assembly floor, without ever shifting domestic policy in a popular direction. The UK political landscape does not appear to meaingfully improve with the introduction of Scottish Nationals or Liberal Democrats.
You might have more options on paper, but the real policies always seem to favor private corporations and international arms dealers, regardless of which faction or coalition composition wins out.
I'm not left or right I'm a secret third thing (Our current system is a complete joke and I'm plagued with dread about my inability to enact meaningful change, I still vote and stuff, but I don't feel like I'm having much of an effect)
What is the word… I used to hear it all the time but haven’t really heard it much these days. Oh what is that word.
Nuance.
Oh, neat. Propaganda done in the style of Far right facebook boomer humor! Love seeing Lemmy constantly generalize and misrepresent people.
This was me before covid, then I got radicalized to the left.
lol Destiny
This is just crypto far righter, not a centrist. This is not a proof that centrists actually exist.
You're right: we should be socialists and have governments like the PRC, North Korea, the ex-USSR, Cuba, Hoxhua's Albania, or the Stalinists in Spain during their civil war. Say what you will about the Khmer Rouge and Sendero Luminoso, but they weren't centrists or moderates.
You saying every country to the left of us, and there's a ton, are basically totalitarian regimes? And please, tell me which countries are more right wing than us that you'd be happy to live in?
probably none,
but IIUC leftism isn't necessarily socialism.
CINO
Yep this is the problem. People can't even define center anymore, they just think you're not choosing sides.
Dude, my best friend, literally
My housemate is kinda like that as well.
Neutrals.
I love how people love to divide things into "left" and "right", even though when you cross international borders not only do they not hold, but different issues become jumbled into their notions of "left" and "right" which they suddenly try to explain away with their own subjective prioritization of which issue is the most important. It's specially ironic when it's computer scientists doing it, computer scientists who have to deal with exponential growth of complexity in computer systems, yet still think wetware systems that are going to be much less defined and are going to be a lot less predictive somehow can have their ideologies put in a line. AI hallucinates, but the bipolar linear political system people delude themselves is proof that humans have no problems hallucinating themselves.
The day you can place dots for all parties everywhere without labeling on a graph (I'll be nice, you can have an additional axis) with an objective definition for what is left/right/up/down such that everyone can recognize which dots correspond to each party is the day I will be proven wrong. There's actually several models that attempt to do this and have been applied to AI political bias, and even they can't agree on it. (tangential source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaroJxFTVFQ )
Left and right is the modern day equivalent of the Roman pantheon. There's actually a far more objective criteria, and it is between those who are willing to work within the premises of a system of governance and those who are trying to game it, but unfortunately it does not correspond to what people consider left and right across the borders and is quite distinct and relative to each system of governance, never mind being pedantic versus considering the intent.
It all comes down to representative democracies being better than winner takes all personality driven democracies, which warps people's views into extremes that can't tolerate critical discussions e.g. US republicans who believe it's all a conspiracy and want to radically change the US, US democrats who won't discuss criticism about Israel, or consider ranked voting systems and popular vote over electoral college. With representative democracies, voting "nOt LeFt Or RiGhT" doesn't result in a lost vote, but means you can have additional opportunities to refine your vote. It's a big reason why in the last elections Spain didn't fall to the fascists.
