A 2020 law banning plastic bags in Vermont has nearly eliminated their use in the state
A 2020 law banning plastic bags in Vermont has nearly eliminated their use in the state
In 2020, Vermont banned the use of plastic bags because of environmental concerns. Five years later, plastic bags have practically disappeared.
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I just wish more places put handles on the paper bags.
I don't mind a paper bag, but I hate having to, like, roll the top to carry it. Just give me some handles. Even a reinforced hole cut in the bag. Anything.
Would it be feasible to bring your own bags? I picked up a cheap 10 pack of fabric bags and they are sturdy enough I can usually fit a week's worth of groceries in two or three of them
I mean, feasible in an objective sense? Yes. I don't want to though, lol. I really like the convenience of bags at the till.
Very much a first world problem though, I'm aware.
If I could remember to put reusable bags in my car, I would. I'd bring them into the store if I remembered too...
Throw a bunch in the car and leave them in there.
Another thing is maybe I'm in the minority or something, but if you have an attached garage I don't understand why you need bags at the store in the first place. You drop the shit in the cart, scan it, pay, put it back in the cart and then put it from the cart into your car trunk. Then you can bag it or box it up at home to carry it from the trunk.
but if you have an attached garage
Not sure why that's necessary for the process. Sometimes I do what you said with the things I buy, but I'm a standard poor living in an apartment. I gotta park my car outdoors, like a filthy animal, but I still do it.
Though I do find it easier to bag while putting things into the car, rather than when taking it out. I've already got to lug everything in and put it all away, so it's nice to have one fewer chore to do when I get home.
That’s how I got dozens of reusable plastic bags at 10¢ each. Eventually I started remembering to bring them into the store. Now it’s a good habit, so I’m ready for cloth bags ….. no hurry, might as well reuse these a bunch more
Leave more bags then you'll possibly need in there or leave a book bag in your car. Eventually you won't be able to go back. If you have one do most of your shopping at an Aldi or Lidi. Plastic grocery bags take up more space than you realize until you go without.
Sadly, having more reusable bags than you need can result in producing even more single-use plastic. From the article New Jersey Bag Ban Followed By Increased Use Of Plastic:
the reusable bags New Jersey shoppers have been forced to use since the bag ban took effect in May of 2022 are rarely reused, only two to three times on average. With many people in New Jersey now using reusable bags as single use bags, the state’s plastic and paper bag prohibition, though passed with the best of intentions, may be doing more harm than good in practice.
Reusable bags are manufactured with 15 to 20 times the amount of plastic used in the now prohibited single-use plastic bag, notes the Freedonia report. The reusable bags that New Jersey residents now pay for at checkout or when their groceries are delivered, according to researchers, need to be used anywhere from 11-59 times in order to have a net benefit for the environment.
Though I would like to note that New Jersey made the stupid decision to not only ban plastic bags, but to ban paper bags too. It's a move I can't understand, except to assume that there's some corrupt lobbying behind such a stupid decision. If the point is to be environmentally friendly, it makes much more sense to use a renewable source like paper.
The study you reference was created by a market research firm who didn't share their data and paid for by plastic lobbyists. They measured projected use only into the first year of implementation when people were understandably buying reusable bags to comply. They took that surge in buying reusable bags as indication of long term demand and then assumed 90% of bags don't get reused, which contradicts other research done by real researchers.
https://whyy.org/articles/new-jersey-plastic-bag-ban-study-misinformation/
Wow, great catch! Thank you for the updated information.
I have a bunch in my car. Now I have to remember to take them into the store.
Just buy paper then.
You say this, but when there aren't any options, you either (in my state) pay ten cents per paper bag, or you get in the habit of bringing your own. I was bad at remembering at first too, but you get used to it. Most non-grocery places just use paper bags. The grocery is the only place you really should bring your own.
Some folks I've seen even now just keep a laundry type basket in their car, straight from cart to basket and into the house. It's not abnormal to see people packing their groceries at their trunk at Walmart.
I do buy paper. That was literally how I started this thread. I'm happy to buy paper bags. I just wish they had handles more often.
As someone who frequently shops on their bike, lack of handles on paper bags can be the difference between me being able to bring things home or not. I can hang a plastic bag off of the handle bars or over my shoulder if I need to. A paper bag without handles is going to leave me pretty screwed if I don't currently have panniers with me.
Rack and some bungee used to be my way to do it.
Hated it every time.
Reusable bags. Bonus that you can find something that checks all your boxes and its all yours. Paper bags should be last resort and they should charge 10c to discourage their use.
I'd happily pay $1/paper bag with handles, just for the convenience. That's about what it's worth to me.
I'm absentminded as all hell, and I'm not gonna remember to bring an armful of bags into the grocery store with me. And then, if I'm not using a cart, I gotta carry them around? Nah.
I mean, it's a super first world problem, and not a big deal at all in the grand scheme of things. But in all honesty I'd rather just pay $1/paper bag than have to deal with it.
Damn, that hurts me to read haha. Like, I get the absent mindedness thing, but it’s a ridiculously easy step that if all 330 million people in the US (I assume that is also where you are from, sorry if I’m wrong) were to stop then it would actually have a tangible effect on resource consumption. Obviously that isn’t going to solve all of our problems, but the whole idea of ‘whatever, this is slightly more convenient’ should instead be ‘eh, it’s not that much of a hassle.’ I think that’s fully the fault of 100 years of that mindset being pushed down our throats in the form of CONSUME, but we’ve got to break free of it if there’s ever going to be a chance.
I'd be really interested to see a quantitative analysis of how much difference it would make if all 330mil of us swapped to renewable bags.
My gut is that paper bags are pretty clean overall, and that grocery bags are a tiny fraction of paper usage in the US. But I'd be really interested to be proven wrong.
My quick search keeps popping up the statistic of 14 million trees for 10 billion paper bags used annually in the US, but in 1999 so I’m sure that is higher. You’ve also got to consider the high energy usage and large environmental concerns of paper mills. I don’t know if you’ve ever been near a paper mill, but they’re known for their air pollution, they make entire towns stink.
This stat taken from http://www.forestecologynetwork.org/climate_change/plastic_or_paper.html
ENERGY TO PRODUCE BAG ORIGINALLY (BTUs) Safeway Plastic Bags: 594 BTUs Safeway Paper Bags: 2511 BTUs (Source: 1989 Plastic Recycling Directory, Society of Plastics Industry.)
I do think the BTUs portion is less concerning in the greater context. Both 600 and 2500 are negligible compared to, say, my daily commute, or a single plane trip, or basically any other activity that requires energy.
But the first part is kinda interesting. Doing some super sloppy back of the napkin math, I think that makes paper shopping bags about 6.5% of all paper products made in the US. Paper products account for around 50% of all wood products in the US, so call it just over 3% of total wood use (which may have gone up some due to increased prevalence of paper lately.)
Which isn't nothing for sure. I would have guessed lower. I do think it may be overstating it to say we'd see a huge shift if everyone started using reusable bags overnight. A 3% drop in timber harvesting would be good, but not world changing I would think. But not insignificant either.
Again, I want to point out this is a minor change that you can make that if everyone did, would have a positive impact in this world. Huge impact, maybe not. But when our entire society is built to destroy the planet that we require for life, we need to remove as many cuts as possible.
I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, but conversations like this one are the reason that I have zero faith in humanity. It’s easy to point fingers as the obvious evil we have going on in the world, which clearly has more of a direct threat. But even if we were somehow able to rid the world of the truly despicable, we’d still be left with a world full of ‘its more of an impact than I thought, but still not so bad’ people. And our planet cannot continue on like that. It absolutely amazes me how many people (including good friends of mine) who think the same way. And there is no way to change this mindset, its as ingrained as any of the bigotry and hate on the other side. We just have no chance against this.
I think there's a couple of things in play here though.
First, this kinda has, "if millennials just didn't drink Starbucks they could afford rent" energy. Would it make a difference? Maybe. But in the grand scheme what it would do is just take away something they enjoy, while they remain unable to make their student loan payments, much less but a house. The actual problems are more systematic, and the "don't buy Starbucks" argument is to some degree just a distraction from fixing those more systematic problems (or an intentional effort to divide people so they can't cooperate to fix those systematic issues.)
Second, I think you're maybe exhibiting a little bit more brinkmanship than is warrented. It's important to care about the environment, and there's obviously a ton that needs to be done there. But as you say, there are bigger and worse threats out there than people buying paper bags, and it sounds like you're letting your existential dread over the environment sour your actual, meaningful interpersonal connections. It feels a bit over the top to "lose faith in humanity" just because most people buy paper bags. Most people are good people, and it's not unreasonable for them to take small conveniences, even if those conveniences aren't environmentally "optimal."
I live in a state that has banned the use of them, so no, most people I know don’t use them. The people that said the same thing as you complained for all of a month before they acclimated to a simple fucking task. All parts of our system are fucked, but if it is a trivial matter to unfuck one small part of the system, then we should do that. And then fix the next trivial fucking thing that people say they would rather spend a dollar per bag on and argue for twelve hours about whether or not chopping just 14 million trees per year on top of the other billion trees we chop is all that bad.
This is exactly why I say I have no faith in humanity, your dollar a bag comment says more to how fucked we are than anything. People absolutely will not change. They will literally hurt themselves just so they can hurt the environment because ‘haha, I forget sometimes so I don’t want to try.’ Even when presented with the evidence they ask for on the environmental impacts, they will say ‘worse than I expected, but not that bad when everything else is shit.’ I’m tired of everything being shit. And I’m tired of people saying, oh it’s a just a little shit. Quit accepting shit people. And don’t buy starbucks, because it’s shit coffee from a shit company.
I think the "more than I thought it would be" comment was more a reflection on how low I thought it would be than on how high it is. It's still a pretty tiny fraction of the overall problem.
But, like, look. The optimal decision, and the only way to "stop accepting shit" as you put it, is for every single person to drop what they're doing and go live as a hermit in the woods, and never produce or consume another product.
That isn't realistic for the majority of people though. And while I could succumb to self-flagellation as a form of symbolic protest, I think my time and effort is spent participating in the system as it is, and donating to organizations that can make more systematic changes that might ultimately do some good.
Beating yourself (or others) up for "not doing enough" is at best a form of coping with things that are beyond your control, and at worst a form of alienating people who broadly agree with you.
And, to be clear, I didn't say I'd pay a dollar a bag for any old paper bag. I said I'd pay that much for one with handles. Big difference.
The timber part is no big deal - it’s all farmed trees and sawmill waste product. The water and energy use to make them, store them, ship them is more significant.
Agreed, and it's not like clean energy generation and good wastewater treatment are impossible - just more expensive. Perhaps 10x the normal cost per bag would pay for the difference?
You will remember after the fifth, sixth, fiftennth time at check out you basically standing there naked trying to figure out how to get your groceries home.
Or you just pay the 10 cents for paper ..
Happy to pay for paper. As I said, I'd gladly pay $1/bag for them if they'd just put effing handles on them.
I dunno not being willing to even carry bags, things that are literally made for carrying, kinda seems like a you problem rather than a first world problem. Like there's the regular biases toward convenience we all have and there's Jesus fucking Christ how are you this incapable of tolerating the most minor of tasks.
You know how you handle the onerous task of carrying a bag while shopping? You put the bags in the basket with everything else, put the food in the bags themselves, or just loop the handle over your shoulder.
I think you're overstating my position. It's not that I'm "not willing to carry bags." It's that I've weighed the options and decided that the provided disposable bags are more convenient, so I'm just gonna do that. I'm unconvinced that switching would do much beyond slightly inconvenience me.
And you say it's just a "me problem," but a quick and unverified Google search says that 70% of people in the US don't use reusable bags (and 57% worldwide). So it seems like it's not so much a "me problem" as a "literal majority of the world" problem. Though I'm sure it probably felt good to attack me personally, as that gives you someone to lash out at.
There's a reason I only commented on the "carry bags throughout the store?!? not me" position. That's the one that outs you as unusually unwilling accept even the most trivial of inconveniences. That you even include that in your justification speaks volumes about your personality.
I have never in my life found a paper bag with handles that will hold groceries. I'd need easily twice as many to hold all my groceries vs my reusable ones.
Have you ever shopped at a Trader Joes? Those paper bags are by far the best paper bags that I've ever used, and can carry about as much as my reusable ones.
I assume handles cost more money to produce. But yes, bags without handles are useless if you’re shopping for the week.
They are also kind of fragile, if you put any force on the handle in any way other than directly vertically up, they fail easily. And they can still easily fail from a heavy bag or if the handle twists at all.
The number of upvotes suggests that people on here find it common for paper bags to not have handles, which is just completely weird and stupid. Shut down all the governments until they know how to handle bags.
Right? It's literally Trader Joe's and Aldi that have handled bags where I live. Every single other store only has handleless bags. It's terrible.