The Lemmy User Experience is Better When Centralized into Fewer Instances
The Lemmy User Experience is Better When Centralized into Fewer Instances
Most people access the Fediverse through one of the large instances: lemmy.world, kbin, or beehaw. New or small instances of Lemmy have no content by default, and can most easily get content by linking to larger Lemmy instances. This is done manually one "Community" at a time (I spent 15 minutes doing this yesterday). Meanwhile, on larger instances, content naturally aggregates as a result of the sheer number of users. Because people generally want a user experience similar to Reddit, I think it's inevitable that most user activity will be concentrated in one or two instances. It is probable that these instances follow in the footsteps of Reddit- the cycle repeats.
I actually think the Fediverse is in the beginning the process of fragmenting into siloed smaller, centralized instances. Beehaw, which is on the list of top instances, just blacklisted everyone from lemmy.world. Each of the three largest instances now are working to be a standalone replacement for Reddit and are in direct competition with each other. It is possible that this fragmentation and instability? of Lemmy instances will kill the viability of Federated Reddit altogether, but hopefully not.
These are my main takeaways from my three days on the Fediverse. I will stick around to see if the Fediverse can sustain itself after the end of the Reddit blackouts.
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It sounds like you are describing new user experience.
And I understand, coming from Reddit, how this can be a shock.
However, that's how Lemmy works.
Similar to how twitter users got a shock moving (or trying to move) to mastadon.The very nature of the fediverse works better with more instances, where a single instance has fewer users and the communities are more focussed.
Beehaw hasn't "blacklisted everyone from...". They've defederated. Whilst it may seem similar, it's more nuanced. And that's what a lot of people don't understand.
Block-listing all users from lemmy.world from interacting with beehaw would be an amazing ability. That would put beehaw in a read-only state for users on lemmy.world, whilst still allowing beehaw users access to lemmy.world.
Unfortunately, the current admin/mod tools do not allow for that. And manually dealing with the huge influx of toxic users (posting death threats, illegal porn or trolling) was taking too much time.Besides, the lemmy.world admin is working on custom tooling to deal with this issue. Because it is their users causing this issue, and it is their problem. And there is no higher authority - there are no Reddit admins to say "stop brigading".
Shitjustworks, last I heard, weren't responding to communication.
I have no doubts that beehaw will refederate as soon as Lemmy.world sorts their mod issues, or the Lemmy framework allows for more nuanced mod tools.You have to remember that Lemmy is young.
It's been around for a few years, but the shear scale of what is happening now is less than 2 weeks oldIt’s unfortunate if the sh.itjust.works folks aren’t speaking, their listed rules seem pretty reasonable and the problem users appear to be breaking the rules of that instance too.
We have talked with them and will work with other instances to push for better moderation tool. We have nothing against individual people or their communities. Let's keep that in mind.
This copy-and-pasted reply doesn't actually address what I was talking about.
The people who have a problem here aren't lemmy.world, it's beehaw. So while it's understandably polite for lemmy.world to moderate themselves, ultimately the tools you're going to need will be on beehaw's side, because even if lemmy.world does everything you could possibly desire there's going to be many other instances that allow open subscription in the future and you can't expect them all to do your policing for you.
This message was not copy-pasted nor was it addressed to you, I'm kinda confused why you think that.
But yes, beehaw needs moderations tools - we are working with other instances so that Lemmy - for everyone - can have better tools.
Also, we don't expect other instances to do policing for us, this is why we want better federation options so that people using Beehaw can interact with the outside but those that do not cultivate a culture that matches with what we want would not be able to interact on Beehaw.
Very weird, there appears to be a bug in kbin. I'm seeing your "We have talked with them..." comment as a response to dozens of different comments here, including one that I made, and now when I look through the thread my response to your comment is replicated in all those dozens of places as well. My apologies, that would explain why your response seemed like such a non-sequitur to me. I'll see if I can file a bug report about this.
Edit: here's the bug report.
Edit 2: I missed a duplicate bug report that was already filed for this issue
Thank you for filing the bug report - that is really weird... I hope kbin fixes that issue quickly because that's definitely gonna lead to some very off interpretations.
You misunderstand. I was making the case that for me personally, the fediverse works better if there are few central node instances that are not particularly focused. I get that this is controversial, but I make the case for it anyways.
For example, I would rather have all the largest technology, gaming, and selfhosting communities be in one or two instances rather than having to x-post to 5 technology or gaming communities across numerous instances.
The second part is only speculation, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyways.
I mean... that's on you, then. Historically, that's not how the Fediverse has worked, and it likely will continue to not work that way. Things could always change, considering the Twitter exodus and now the Reddit exodus, but the way most Fediverse services are set up seems to encourage smaller communities rather than large, centralized ones. Plus, if you have centralized ones, what happens if admins go rogue? What if the servers go down? What if, what if, what if? With decentralization, you avoid so many issues that come with having those large, centralized instances. Of course, there are downsides, but if you want something centralized, maybe try something like Tildes?
Twitter is a extremely good fit for ActivityPub as there you are following users, while in Lemmy you primarily follow communities whose strength is determined by number. !technology on beehaw is better than !technology on an instance of 10 people.
By centralized, I mean to be in the 1-4 large instances on Lemmy that people flock to from smaller instances. Right now, the design of the Fediverse encourages former Redditors to join the biggest instances. Discovery tools might spread out the users and make solo instances more viable, but the activity may still be concentrated in the same few instances.
Every instance has the potential to be standalone like Tildes by defederating from everybody else once they hit critical mass. Like Truth Social on Mastodon. Or Kbin before it Federated.
I think we just need better discovery and aggregation. If everyone is looking at an aggregation of "/technology" from every federated instance then there's no reason to flock to large instances.
Isn’t there a big danger of advertising and influence moving in if you have a handful of centralized servers?
Sock puppet accounts to influence the conversation don’t make economic sense when the people you are influencing number in the thousands. They do when you are in the millions.
Paying a server admin for influence or a hand on the scale makes no sense if that server has thousands of users mostly subscribed to your handful of communities on your handful of large instances.
Yes, the user experience is easier, but I think it opens things up to community attack scenarios that a wider federation of of servers with a wide distribution of popular communities makes more difficult.
And to be clear, I don’t mean attack as in taking systems offline. I mean attack as in moneyed interests doing the type of thing moneyed interest does on all popular social media. Things that I believe make the user experience worse.
My fear is that your desire for centralization to make the user experience easier creates a system that makes the user experience worse in a way that makes it much more difficult to fight.
What fediverse services are set up that way? For most projects, the flagship instance is by far the largest. For Mastodon it is something like 900k difference between the next most popular instance.
Block-listing all users from lemmy.world from interacting with beehaw would be an amazing ability. That would put beehaw in a read-only state for users on lemmy.world, whilst still allowing beehaw users access to lemmy.world. Unfortunately, the current admin/mod tools do not allow for that.
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Besides, the lemmy.world admin is working on custom tooling to deal with this issue. Because it is their users causing this issue, and it is their problem.
It seems to me that calling this "lemmy.world's problem" and expecting them to be the ones to solve it is disingenuous. You yourself say that you could "solve" it with your own custom tooling. Why not work on adding the ability to block users from a specific other instance on your instance, if that would be an amazing ability? Why is it only lemmy.world that has to do work to solve the problem?
Other instances also allow open signups, and there will no doubt be more of them in the future.
I think what they’re trying to say here is that lemmy.world is a site with a community and they’ve got a problem of having a toxic community that’s abusing another community. THAT is their problem and they need to fix it through moderation. Until then, other communities will do what they need to do to limit the damage caused by the users of their community. It’s not solely up to Lemmy.world to create the tools to fix their issue but it is their responsibility to moderate effectively, just like every other community has that responsibility and they have an incentive to work on the tools to make that job easier for themselves but also for all of the communities in the fediverse.