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This is the most frustrating and stupid news cycle - the US government has been sending folks back to Colombia via commercial flights since like 2020. The Biden administration sent 124 flights last year. The only difference is that the Trump team wanted to make a big show of sending people in chains on a military flight, and the Colombian government wanted their citizens to be treated like human beings. Our media is shamefully inadequate to this moment.
Devils advocate: these people broke the law, are the optics of them being transported in a "prison plane" really out of line with what's happened?
Deportation is not prison, and most of the world doesn't share the US' hardon for humiliating criminals - but only if they are poor and not the government approved genetic background.
Deportation is not prison
Devils Advocate: What they did was illegal though. Had they been transported to a cell in a prison van would that have been inappropriate?
You assume that they are violent criminals and not just people who overstayed visas or are victims of a very slow refugee system.
Trump has so many felonies, so many that are clear red flags showing that he shouldn’t be in charge of anything, and he is now the president of the United States. These people do not deserve the indignity of being sent home in chains on an unannounced military aircraft while that stupid fuck gets to prance around without any consequences at all.
There’s being a devil’s advocate and there’s being stupid and cruel for the sake of it. You actually don’t need to “balance light and dark”.
Being a devils advocate is not enlightened centrism or bringing 'balance'. It's having a debate for the sake of having a debate. I don't hold those views, hence why they're so marked. Otherwise political discussion drains away as everyone sits in their respective silos. Im inviting people (if they want) to articulate their view beyond their emotional reaction.
You’re really not doing that and I do not have the time or energy to explain to it to you. Congrats on your opportunity to think on that, I wish you much luck.
Thanks.
If anyone else wants to explain I'm all ears
You are not defending a position, all you're doing is playing an adult version of the toddler "why" game. If you want a debate or to have discussion you need to add something to it. State your position and defend it.
If the end result was exactly the same and you had a choice between treating them like normal people and sending them on commercial aircraft with prior notice, or handcuffing them and transporting them on military aircraft with no notice, which would you say is the best way to deport them?
If you want a debate or to have discussion you need to add something to it. State your position and defend it.
i am repeating myself but the view i'm illustrating is essentially this:
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it is harmful in multiple ways for a soverign state to appear to not have control of its border
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entering a country illegally is a serious crime
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where there is a popular perception of excessive lenience, it is acceptable to show criminals in handcuffs which is not in itself particularly unusual
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using a miliiary airplane is grandstanding, yes. but it also illustrates that these people were not citizens when they broke american law and it is ok for a country to draw a firm line on things like this particuarly if they want it to stop
which would you say is the best way to deport them?
you can see elsewhere in this thread that i agreed with this point and i thought it was a good counter argument. even IF if were appropriate to handcuff criminals and deport them using non-civilian means, it's ultimately an uneconomical use of money. (though one could argue that there is value in publicising that this is a crime against the state, which it is, and is being treated as such)
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They already explained it and you're being obtuse. Plenty of illegal actions don't result in arrest.
They definitely never end in a MILITARY TRANSPORT TRYING TO, UNANNOUNCED, LAND ON SOVREIGN SOIL. Trump specifically referred to it as repatriation (like done with enemy combatants) and not deportation. This was treating people just trying to live as ENEMY COMBATANTS.
So beyond it being a massive departure from how every other "free" country handles deportation, it was a far removed example of how even the US treats it's criminals.
There is no Devils Advocate argument for this beyond fascism and your insistence that you weren't answered 1 or 2 comments in looks like you're just a bad actor, which I'm very inclined to believe.
Plenty of illegal actions don’t result in arrest.
and plenty do. where the line is is basically the thing up for debate
end in a MILITARY TRANSPORT TRYING TO, UNANNOUNCED, LAND ON SOVREIGN SOIL
i thought this particular aspect was tragically stupid as you can see earlier in this thread
Trump specifically referred to it as repatriation (like done with enemy combatants) and not deportation
i don't know enough about American use of the word, so i'll agree with you here. in britain "repatriation" means sending something back to where it should be, it has a slightly different meaning to deportation since deportation only means being moved out of a country (to wherever). repatriation emphasises that the destination was the country of nationality. but this difference might not exist in america.
So beyond it being a massive departure from how every other “free” country handles deportation, it was a far removed example of how even the US treats it’s criminals.
they are using the military to grandstand, yes. but also to point out that these guys are not citizens. this is not the same question of how american citizens are treated.
There is no Devils Advocate argument for this beyond fascism
well..that's why i persist with doing it. because i'm not a fascist. nor am i particuarlly representing a fascist point of view. just a different point of view on how severe a crime it is to illegally enter a country. that's the only difference so far. i am not interested in Devils Advocating pure bigotry like straight up racism etc. it can be done, but i don't personaly see the point. what interests me is that i'm not even representing a necessarily fascist point of view and yet am being accused of such. i think that black and white thinking is ultimatly harmful because it represents its own kind of intolerance - being unable to accept that some otherwise normal people just find entering a country illegally a serious crime against the state that should be treated as such.
you’re just a bad actor
i am continually surprised at how people cannot cope with even moderately different views to them without resorting to outlandish accusations. i don't personally hold these views, i made that clear from the start. what i find boring is no-one ever representing even a moderately different point of view. questioning how severe a crime it is to enter a country illegally should not automatically result in accusations of "fascist" and insincerity... how else is it even possible to have a discussion about things like illegal migration?
Sidenote: fuck the devil and fuck his advocates
And fuck this guy!
This devil's advocate position your holding is very akin to fascists "just asking questions".
You seem to equate any lawbreaking as requiring handcuffs and imprisonment. So by your "devil's advocate" stand it seems like you think leaving your Christmas lights up deserves handcuffs and imprisonment. Do you agree?
What situation do you think handcuffs should or should not be used when dealing with someone breaking the law?
This devil's advocate position your holding is very akin to fascists "just asking questions".
If someone were doing that just to be obtuse then I wouldn't talk to them either. If someone were talking like that because they genuinely believed that and were going to discuss things in a measured reasonable way then that's the kind of discussion I think is essential.
You seem to equate any lawbreaking as requiring handcuffs and imprisonment.
I very much didn't say this at all. I don't think it's necessary for you to exaggerate to make your point.
What situation do you think handcuffs should or should not be used when dealing with someone breaking the law?
Devils Advocate: when they pose a reasonable risk to the public (not applicable in this case) or have already demonstrated a willingness to evade authorities when breaking the law (applicable). Committing fraud: no cuffs. Most low level drug offences: no cuffs. Previously escaped prison: cuffs. Evaded authorities to trespass or enter illegally: cuffs.
You don't need to add the "devils advocate" part, we're already past 2010, we know is your own opinion.
Lol. See.. this is why it's necessary to add it. I'm a British socialist. I don't hold those views, I value debate for the sake of it. Else everyone sinks further into their political silos, casting things in black and white.
Optics discussion aside, I think it cost like $800k to transport them via C130. There’s no reason to use this method other than to grandstand. They’ve sent thousands of folks back to Colombia via commercial and chartered flights.
+1 convincing argument
Even IF it were a legitimate way to treat people who'd broken the law, it's an unnecessarily expensive way of doing it
prison plane
Military cargo planes are not prison planes lol
My mistake, my phrasing could have been better.
Given that people breaking the law are routinely transported while handcuffed in non commercial police vehicles, what specifically is the issue with transporting them on something other than a civilian jet?
Devils Advocate: they broke the law. Had they been transported handcuffed in a prison van would that be "cruel and unusual punishment"?