Communist @ communist @lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz

I'm an anarchocommunist, all states are evil.

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1 yr. ago

Back then ubuntu had pretty much all of linux cornered, the vast majority of distros were ubuntu based or ubuntu adjacent, and ubuntu was beloved, however, it came with a number of flaws, mint just rectified those flaws and was otherwise basically just ubuntu.

By being ubuntu based and getting rid of the stuff that made people angry, you ended up with a highly supported, beloved distro. These days things have changed, however, fedora is just as if not more well supported than ubuntu, same with arch based distros.

Dunno, a long time ago at this point.

That would've been true 5 years ago. Wayland is plenty tested these days, give me some data indicating the rate of issues is significantly higher and I'll agree, elsewise I think the most secure well supported option is the best one. X11 is being deprecated left and right for a reason.

gnome is wayland by default, kde is wayland by default, even XFCE is transitioning to wayland at this point... that's just not a valid argument in the modern era.

Simple, it was the best choice for a long time and hasn't done anything to piss people off.

it's no longer the best choice but mint people are still happy so they still recommend it even though it is objectively the wrong choice to start with for a beginner.

I agree I honestly don’t like immutable distro’s at all because you can’t install packages the way everyone else does: via package managers.

this is false, rpm-ostree exists and works for this exactly. There's nothing you can't do on bazzite that you can do on a non-immutable distro.

Even if that wasn't true... package management is just done through flatpak, there's no real fundamental difference, it's just an abstraction layer, I don't see why that would be important to you at all, and comes with numerous benefits:

1. You cannot break your system with these, ever.
2. Significantly less burden on package maintainers
3. You can have many versions of software installed
4. These applications are sandboxed and thus more secure.
5. This enables complete graphical management of software, no longer requiring the terminal.

It not having packages you may need applies to any package management solution, other distros do not package everything either. In fact, the distro with the most packages is an immutable one, nixos.

Here's the problem: what you just did can be done with literally any distro. There are anecdotal stories of every single distro on earth being broken. Even non-linux distros, windows and macos have such stories.

Do you have any actual statistical evidence that fedora works less often than mint?

I've given it to quite a few people and nobody has had any issues. There are anecdotal stories of literally every single distro failing for somebody, them going to another distro and it just working.

here's a counter example: https://lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz/post/53716147/18213941

"UPDATE 2: Ok, Fedora seems waaaay more stable than Ubuntu (and Mint). No strangeness like before…"

And their problems were MUCH worse than yours.

I have cancelled out your one claim with this, we can't make progress until there's proper statistics, no amount of anecdotal stories will make fedora less stable or more stable than mint.

less up to date software is a double edged sword, if you don't have statistics I don't think you can really make the claim that mint just works when fedora/bazzite don't.

Then there's the things that are objectively broken in mint for everyone until cinnamon properly supports wayland:

1. Every single app can read your keyboard input without asking
2. Every single app can see what every single other app is doing without asking
3. Apps can fullscreen themselves and go over everything else, because they can control their own window placement to any degree they want, again, without asking.
4. HDR
5. mixed refresh rate and dpi display configurations.

It runs x11, the wayland port is going insanely slow, x11 has the following problems every time:

1. Every single app can read all of your keyboard input without asking
2. Every single app can see what every single other app is doing without asking
3. Apps can fullscreen themselves and go over everything else, because they can control their own window placement to any degree they want, again, without asking.
4. HDR https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1037#note_521100 (if you need a source)
5. mixed refresh rate and dpi display configurations.

It may support these someday, maybe. But progress is absurdly slow. Considering cinnamon has fewer changes as a whole than just the KDE text editor alone, kde is a significantly better choice if you want a well-supported, bug-free and feature rich experience.

Note here, a lot of people are going to recommend you mint, I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.

I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.

The mere fact that bazzite and other immutables generate a new system for you on update and let you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).

How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.

Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.

Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lxqt is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.

I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.

this evidence is anecdotal, many people have worse experiences with X11 and we don't have the stats infront of us to tell us which "just work"

Element x is pretty solid but not perfect, matrix-rust-sdk needs to have desktop clients, servers need to support all the new stuff, I give element 5 years before it's a top tier messenger

Yes, it makes them have more latency issues amongst other small things.

It's not a big deal, but I want x11 fully gone from my system, it's legacy cruft that I no longer have any need for except to run these few things.

They use xwayland. They are not native wayland applications.

You're not a paraplegic, are you?

The problem is immune systems, these have to be kept in a perfectly sterile environment, until that's fixed this is going to be much more expensive than regular meat