China is Systematically Dismantling Tibetan Monastic Traditions
China is Systematically Dismantling Tibetan Monastic Traditions
You're viewing a single thread.
China working to prevent indoctrination of children with superstitious religious practices that are harmful to the people practicing them.
Edit:
Funny how everybody is downvoting based on knee jerk reactions, while nobody acknowledge the harmful practices.
Always this special pleading for religious practices, that we would never accept in any other context.Those superstitious barbarians just needed enlightenment... where have I heard that before?
More like China acting like a colonizer to kill the culture.
Superstition and kidnapping of children is not "culture".
Kidnapping?
When the Dalai Lama dies, they go around asking kids questions only the Dalai Lama would know. The one that gets the most right is considered the reincarnation and made the next Dalai Lama
I repeat: kidnapping?
It’s all I could come up with
So that's how they're euphemizing ethnic genocide these days, huh?
Wonder what China is doing to prevent indoctrination of children with radical partisan CCP loyalism.
Religious superstition is not culture worth preserving.
I'm glad we have you to tell us what is and isn't culture worth preserving; we were at real risk of having a diversity of opinion for a moment there.
Well that's just objectively false. Like it or not, religion is a hugely significant part of history, and it's incredibly important for contextualization.
Besides, in the modern era, if it's not hurting anyone, why do you care? Let them alone to do their thing in peace.
Superstition is also a large part of Steve Jobs history, it's what killed him.
So would he have been better off if he had not been superstitious?
Exercising religious superstition is not culture, it's stupidity that harm both society and the individual.Stupidity is a significant part of our history, that doesn't mean we should preserve stupidity.
Would that be worth taking away his autonomy and will without consent?
Make all the misguided excuses you want for what China is doing. It won't make it right. It was wrong when the United States did it to my family. And it is wrong when China is doing it now.
If China wants to help them. Then offer them opportunity and choice. If the opportunities and choice are better. Their culture will adapt and change to it. Forcing eradication of their culture through violence will only breed resentment and grievance.
Would that be worth taking away his autonomy and will without consent?
Wow congratulations, first real argument in any response I've received until now.
But they are not really taking away his autonomy by closing the monastery, they are only putting an end to a harmful practice that is illegal.
Now the part about harmful may be a matter of opinion. But personally I believe religious practices are mostly harmful.How is that not taking away autonomy? That's kind of literally the definition of. They aren't appealing for them to close the monastery on their own. They are forcing it.
You and I can both state plainly that the practices are harmful. And even justify the assertion. We would never subject ourselves to it by choice. But that's the thing it has to be a choice. Give them other choices other opportunities. That is absolutely fine.
But the moment you enact your beliefs upon others through violence. It doesn't matter if you are factually correct. You are no longer the "good guy". You've lost the argument. If you cannot make the case for it on merits alone.
There is a very good reason concepts of imperialism and colonization are frowned upon these days. Why you don't see many groups talking about going out and civilizing savages. These are the so-called "good intentions" that the proverbial road to Hell is paved with. The same sort of justification that they used to separate my grandmother from her family. And sent her to special schools. The kind that in many places often ended up with mass Graves of children.
People have a right to be stupid, though.
A lot of culture, is irrational and or superstitious. Tibetan culture has a lot of that, Chinese culture as well and American culture is also no exception.
You may find that disagreeable and not worth preserving, and I'm even inclined to agree with that on many occasions. But who is to decide which parts of ones own culture can be done away with, if not the people practicing that culture?
Can I decide which parts of your culture don't agree with MY values and take that away from you?
People have a right to be stupid, though.
Yes but regarding culture people always talk about how we need to preserve culture, obviously we shouldn't actively work to preserve stupidity.
And religion is stupid superstition and doesn't deserve to be preserved, and where it is demonstrably harmful to others, it should definitely not be allowed.It's no different than Nazi propaganda and organisations being illegal in most countries.
Can I decide which parts of your culture don’t agree with MY values and take that away from you?
If parts of our culture is demonstrably harmful, it is in our own interests to remove those parts. Racism would be a good example. And we are working on it, but somehow people keep being racist.
True. It's Classic anti-Chinese propaganda brought by undereducated Westerners. They are, in fact, completely ignorant of the degenerate and backward practices of the Buddhists in this region.
ML not sucking up to China challenge: impossible
Wtf do you know about those practices?!
For instance that children are send there against their will.
Last time I checked, many children were sent to schools against their wills.
To live there the rest of their lives in celibacy?
That's a false equivalence.
Adults choose to live there by their own will, no one is forcing them to.
The only party force people against their will is CCP forcing young and adult monks leave temples, and force children to live in Han-speaking schools full time without their parents.
Adults that have been brainwashed since childhood do not decide for themselves. They do what they are conditioned to do, just like you are doing right now.
Yes the CCP does that too, I never said I like the CCP, but on religion they are mostly right. Just because it's a bad system, it doesn't mean they are always wrong. There are probably also good religious people.
Never assume that mass downvoting in systems that allow up/down voting is organic when the subject matter is US foreign policy and stuff like articles that "thoughtfully" shit talk geopolitical adversaries. It's just a cheap way for fake consensus building, fake peer pressure etc. Tibet was a theocratic feudal kingdom before China ended that garbage, the kind of system that would make the KKK salivate.
So colonialism/imperialism is okay? Either it is or it isn't. All I'm asking for is consistency.
It's 100% possible to find beliefs and practices of cults and cultures to be abhorrent. But also acknowledge that trying to forcefully change things. Almost invariably backfires. As well as undermining any moral stance you may have once had.
So theocracy is okay? So feudalism and serfdom is okay? So not having any political representation is okay? So rule by religious elites and nobility is okay? So brainwashing children is okay? So suggesting that every nation should be an ethnostate otherwise it's "oppression" is okay? So completely ignoring that Tibet is an autonomous region within China is okay? So ignoring that Tibet has a local government is okay? So acting like the Tibetans in the local government don't count because they're communists is okay? So implying that unelected "governments in exile" are automatically more legitimate is okay? So pretending that separatists are democratic and not a tool of Western imperialism (the real one) is okay? So making Charlie Kirk type arguments by distorting what imperialism and colonialism means and using definitions based on vibes and feels is okay? So lowkey wanting to expand western economic and political dominance in Asia and turn more regions into South Koreas is okay? So ignoring that the Dalai Lama himself recognizes Tibet as part of a multiethnic PRC (and Tibet itself is multiethnic) is okay? So crappy US propaganda is okay? So nitpicking and distorting PRC policies in edge cases while ignoring actual western imperialism and colonialism of currently real genocidal proportions is okay? All I'm asking for is consistency.
Want more? It's not hard. Yes I'm sure you think that forcefully ending slavery in the USA for example "backfired" (you said invariably so it's included) and that undermines any moral stance that abolitionists may once had because they weren't gentle with the slave owners and didn't "convince" them first. Sure buddy.
When is the USA going to grant full citizen rights to Guam, like the right to vote in presidential elections and representation in the Houses by the way? Guam independence when? Guam is far less incorporated into USA than Tibet is in PRC, with pretty much zero precedence of historical or cultural ties unlike Tibet.
So it's okay to be a hypocrite? Consistency.
Nice strawman you got there. This has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe Beyond I believe people should have a right to self-determination. I realize that childish leninists are so cock sure and think they know better. Wanting to force their own backward beliefs on everyone else. As much as these Tibetan Monks do. Two wrongs don't make a right.
And I mean as someone coming from a leninist instance it's extremely hilarious that you act as if not having political representation is a bad thing. Political representation actual political representation is denied to wide swaths of people under a Vanguard.
Regarding your laughable whataboutism. I absolutely believe that Guam should be given the right to vote for president if they desire and that the United States should recognize them. Hey quick question when is China going to give the Uyghurs the right to self-determination and to vote? Oh oh that's right, China gave up the right to vote for president completely.
So you were pushing anti-communist propaganda all along and had all these cocksure anti-PRC beliefs already but disguised them as care for feudal theocratic brainwashing of minors? So you can't really argue about literally anything I said like Tibet having a local government of Tibetan communists that you discount entirely because you're an anticommunist shill and not because you care about anything other than manufacturing anti-PRC consent? So you do this using articles from explicitly pro-western propaganda sites like the one above but would never consider checking the other side and yet you call others "cock sure"? So you're so clueless enough to mix up leninism with maoism even though neither invalidate Tibet having a Tibetan government anyway? So unless a nation is an ethnostate there's oppression happening? So only voting for bougie duopoly parties every four years is "democratic" but open access to constant voting and decision making through local governments available to all citizens who want to get involved isn't democratic because Murican crapitalism doesn't operate like that? So you have far far less political representation than anyone in PRC but you want to yap about representation lmao? So you want to bring up the Uyghurs while the source for that is still crappy CIA propaganda and it's actually about religious extremists that you otherwise lock up in Guantanamo when they turn against you? So you keep somehow siding with religious anti--freedom fanatics? So you're so concerned about a state making sure that religious authorities don't end up acting like a political Trojan horse while the West is constantly legislating censorship and repression and cracking down on demonstrations against real genocidal foreign policy and supporting genocidal colonial states? So you almost definitely have never done anything or even posted anything about the liberation of colonized Guam but yet you're yapping about PRC being "imperialist" as if the Tibetans themselves aren't part of their own administration? All I'm asking for is consistency!
I predict crickets like before. But let's go deeper.
So you're either clueless or a liar and don't know that Chinese officials are literally all elected but you imagine who knows what sort of magical appointment by the ghost of Mao probably? So you're almost definitely going to whine about lack of "legitimate" elections in the PRC because it's a single party system as if having two parties that also vet and preapprove their candidates is better outside your propaganda? So you don't know that all levels of government and the party itself are open and you don't need millions to run unlike Murica, making them more democratic institutions because what you really want are pro-calitalist wreckers being allowed to run to turn China into a colony again so you can get cheaper goods in the west? So you clearly don't care about nations (and not just ethnostates) having sovereignty because you want cheaper crap and global dominance for your side at the expense of everyone else? So westerners get to complain about supposedly other nations not having enough democracy while simultaneously complaining about their own parties stealing elections all the time lol?
I've got better ones.
So you complain about whataboutism when the Tibetan issue is literal whataboutism lmao?
Bestest one: So the only valid voices are religious extremists who support western propaganda ( and not the Chinese Han, Tibetans, Uyghurs etc who support their government because you know, they have healthcare, employment, religious freedom AND freedom FROM religion, womens' rights and constantly increasing quality of life unlike the west that consistently loses all these things?
All I'm asking for is consistency.
Oh I forgot. So you either haven't heard or pretend not to know about the oppressed fanatical jihadi Uyghurs active in Syria as Al Qaeda forces? So you're saying that the PRC should embrace Al Qaeda because you clearly support and care about its members? We can talk about the Uyghurs all you want lol, it's you who'll dodge the subject.
I qualify as a communist, why would I be pushing anti-communist propaganda. I'm simply pointing out your hypocrisy and the hypocrisy of leninism. You're not a communist.
Pro-religious propaganda communist, sure buddy. Crickets about everything else as usual.
Quote a single thing I said that was pro religious. You love to build strawmen. But have nothing of actual value to say. Typical leninist.
Pro-religious thing you said? You're here whining about the rights of monks to brainwash kids and Uyghur jihadis lmao.
You've been incapable of answering any of my questions so far and switched to one liners? Typical shill.
Can you be more specific? I've heard some people say that any amount of religion/spirituality at all is inherently harmful and that's a little bit unreasonable.
Admittedly, I don't have any knowledge here because this isn't an issue I've read about before, but the article says people under 18 aren't allowed to join anymore, so the extent to which monastic life is regulated seems excessive and the mandatory state approval of religious leaders seems strange.
How would you like to be taken as a 4 year old child to grow up in a monastery?
That would depend on how I was treated; I asked for specifics on how children in monasteries are abused, but you didn't provide any, so I can't really pass judgement on that other than to say that I am against child abuse.
Are kids still being sent to monasteries? The article says it's illegal now. Of course, this doesn't negate any damage caused in the past, but it's now a crime.
I asked for specifics on how children in monasteries are abused,
Really? Are you sure you really want to go there?
Taken from their parents or abandoned, and forced to a life in religious insanity and celibacy?There is no way any sensible child care worker wouldn't take those children away.
So you have less of an idea about the subject than gonzo, who at least admits not knowing anything. Marvellous tankie specimen.
PS: The CCP sucks donkey dick.
PS: The CCP sucks donkey dick.
I absolutely agree, the only thing worse is religions and their harmful practices and child abuse.
A judgment that forces the reader to think perhaps you were the one who was hurt.