The "deal" requires Ukraine to cede a colossal amount of territory before negotiations even begin. Even if the Ukrainian leadership was willing to give up all of that for peace, doing so here would not actually even buy them peace, only a start to negotiations that could collapse at any time. That's about as diplomatic an offer as Ukraine saying "pre-2014 borders and then we can talk."
Ukraine will lose more territory going forward, that's the fact of the situation. Russia is winning the war, and it's pretty clear that the west is not able to do anything about it.
Russia is being diplomatic, but if nobody wants to do diplomacy on the other end then they're obviously going to take what they want by force at that point. Not sure what's so hard to understand here.
Yeah it is when you are in a position of power. This is precisely how NATO has been conducting diplomacy with Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq.
I'm just explaining to you how the real world works here. That said, Russia gave Ukraine way more chances than US gave any of the countries it invaded.
You said Russia was being diplomatic. Nobody is arguing that powerful countries are often cruel. So again, if this is Russia's diplomacy towards Ukraine, do you agree that America was diplomatic towards Afghanistan?
It's pretty clear that everyone does not want the war to stop given that the west has rejected multiple offers to stop the war. You're right that the war can only stop if the west stops blocking the peace process.
Well, Russia has also rejected nany proposals, so that seems rather even.
I was not aware that Ukraine us preventing Russia from retreating out of Ukraine. Do you have a source for that? My understanding was hat Putin was allowed to pull back his troops, ending the war, without asking for permission from Ukraine? Or is it China he needs permission from? I'm confused. Who exactly is bossing Putin around saying he can't withdraw?
It only seems even when you ignore the fact that Russia is winning the war.
Do you have a source for that? My understanding was hat Putin was allowed to pull back his troops, ending the war, without asking for permission from Ukraine? Or is it China he needs permission from? I’m confused. Who exactly is bossing Putin around saying he can’t withdraw?
That's not what happened. Russia pulled back troops as part of Istanbul negotiations as a show of good faith. You do sound very confused indeed, which is likely why you keep making incoherent statements here. Perhaps spend a bit of time learning about the subject first?
What does the fact that Russia is winning have to do with anything? If anything, it would mean it's even easier to end the war by withdrawing as they would not need to be worried about a counterinvasion?
Putin could end the war tomorrow. He chooses not to. Maybe he chooses not to, because he thinks he is winning? It does not matter. What matters is that he chooses not to end it, killing millions.
You have the mindset that will be the reason for the end of the world. You literally say "the strong can do whatever the fuck they want", how is that not warmongering?
You literally say “the strong can do whatever the fuck they want”, how is that not warmongering?
It's absolutely hilarious that you're claiming that this hasn't been the norm already. The west has invaded Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan just to name a few countries in recent years. The only reason you're upset now is that it's not your side that's doing it.
The people who are going to be the reason for the world to end are always the ones who want the wars to keep going. Especially wars where the outcome is obvious to anyone with a functioning brain.
So anyone who oppose you is a capitalist western dog is it?
It's equally wrong to be sided with the West who invade countries just like to be sided with Russia or China who invades countries or persecute minorities. But since I don't like tyrants, I must be Western.
The norm: "Let's kill each other". Yeah, that looks like something normal. Totally.
I just hope you live long enough to see the second Soviet dissolution. Maybe that day you'll understand how bad warmongering is.
So anyone who oppose you is a capitalist western dog is it?
I'm just pointing out the sheer bullshit your argument is premised on. The west has been going on a rampage across the globe since USSR fell, and now here you are doing hand wringing about might makes right when a non western country does what's already been normalized claiming it would be the end of the world.
The norm: “Let’s kill each other”. Yeah, that looks like something normal. Totally.
That's the world US created under its hegemony since USSR dissolved.
I just hope you live long enough to see the second Soviet dissolution. Maybe that day you’ll understand how bad warmongering is.
The only one doing warmongering here is you. I want the war to end. I love how you aren't even trying to be coherent here.
Many Ukrainians may be open to negotiations in theory, but they overwhelmingly did not trust Russia to negotiate in good faith. Most Ukrainians (86 percent) believed that there is a medium or high risk that Russia will attack again even if there is a signed peace treaty, and even more (91 percent) believed that Russia’s motive to enter negotiations is to take time to prepare for a new attack. Even among those who supported negotiations with Russia, only 21 percent believed that signing a peace treaty would help Ukraine deter future Russian aggression.
Putin's problem is he burned all the trust the world had in him when he attacked Ukraine after saying he would not. If he is truly serious about peace, he first needs to rebuild that trust.
The reality is that Russia is winning the war, and every day that goes by puts Ukraine and its western sponsors in a worse position. The terms will only get worse from here on out.
Even if it were true, it has nothing to do with the fact that Putin has said he is open for negotiations, while doing absolutely nothing to actually get people to negotiate with him.
If he wants to negotiate, he needs to work on building trust, so he has someone to negotiate with. If he does not want to negotiate, then he should just say so. What Putin does now just makes people not take him seriously. You could practically hear the global eye-rolling when he made his latest proposal.
I don't think you understand what's happening here. Either the west decides to start negotiating or there won't be an Ukraine left. Those are the options on the table.
Right, and Putin knows that the west and Ukraine will not negotiate since they don't trust him. So what is the point of making an offer you don't expect to be accepted? If you don't expect to negotiate, you are not being serious about it.
You can not claim to be for a diplomstic solution and at the same time do nothing to actually reach it.
Putin would rather kill millions of Ukrainians and Russians than make himself trustworthy (which could actually lead to a diplomatic solution)? What kind of person does that?
The west of Ukraine has a choice to work with Russia to resolve this or to wait for Russia to win militarily and dictate terms. I'm still not sure what part of this you're struggling with.
Now, Russia has put out another peace deal based on the realities on the ground today. The west immediately rejected it again. Yet, it turns out that it's Putin who is willing to kill millions instead of using basic diplomacy. Interesting logic you've got going there.
I guess we have to disagree then. To me making an offer you know does not stand a chance is not basic diplomacy. Threatening to murder the person you "want" to negotiate with is also not basic diplomacy IMHO.
But I guess I could try the Russian school of diplomacy the next time I want to ask for a raise. I'm not sure taking a shit in front of my boss' office and loudly proclaim I will beat him until I get a 1000% raise will be a great way to start the negotiations, but you've actually convinced me to give it a try.
To the Ukrainians’ dismay, there was a crucial departure from what Ukrainian negotiators said was discussed in Istanbul. Russia inserted a clause saying that all guarantor states, including Russia, had to approve the response if Ukraine were attacked. In effect, Moscow could invade Ukraine again and then veto any military intervention on Ukraine’s behalf — a seemingly absurd condition that Kyiv quickly identified as a dealbreaker. Russia tried to secure a veto on Ukraine’s security guarantees by inserting a clause requiring unanimous consent.
With that change, a member of the Ukrainian negotiating team said, “we had no interest in continuing the talks.”