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Asklemmy @lemmy.ml BmeBenji @lemm.ee

What do you think of the term "short king" as a term that's supposed to champion body positivity for men?

Body positivity is such a strange concept to me. There's efforts to reclaim words while simultaneously calling them bad if used as an insult. Ideally, people wouldn't be offended by someone describing their body with common descriptors, but socially there is so much value attributed to certain body types that it's almost impossible to avoid having an emotional response of some kind to various descriptors.

For example, It's not bad to be fat, but calling someone "fat" is almost universally considered a bad thing. The same definitely seems to go for the idea of being "short."

I'm asking this question because I can't put my finger on why but something seems to be different about the use of the term "short" from the use of the term "fat." I think that part of it is how, to me at least, the term "fat" is so generic and hard to nail down to a discrete definition, implying that the word really doesn't have a clear connection to reality. On the other hand, height is a single-dimensional number. You either are above a certain threshold, or you aren't.

I recently learned that May 6th to May 10th is "short king week" because it's 5'6" to 5'10" which then prompted me to search for the origins of "short king" and apparently the person most-credited with popularizing the term is Jaboukie Young-White who claims the term was meant to include all men under 6 feet tall. The average adult male height is 5'9" leaving men considered roughly average to be called "short" which is still considered an insult by many.

I dunno. As a term that was intended to champion body positivity compared with how the term is actually used, what do you think of "short king?"

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  • I'm 5'6" and find the term childish and insulting. It's not the short part, it's the king part. I am not a king, I'm a regular guy working a regular job.

    "Body positivity" is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles. Twisting reality to make someone comfortable is detrimental to their physical and mental health.

    I don't understand the reasoning but, across the board, it seems today's culture is very quick to accept literal delusions in place of reality for the sake of feelings and "mental well being".

    • I think that you have internalized a version of body positivity that lies on the most extreme end of what is meant by that phrase. Body positivity - be comfortable with who you are and do not put down on others due to their body.

      The odds are that I am significantly fatter than you. The odds also favor that I am significantly stronger than you, even if you lift weights. I can also probably walk all day much farther than you can.

      Would it be healthier if I lose body fat? Absolutely. Have I tried for 20 years to do that? Yes. I am not ignorant regarding nutrition. I am not lazy. I am not overall lacking willpower. I am fat but otherwise healthy.

      Body positively means that my doctor treats my body fat as what it is - one aspect of my overall health. He does not assume that every problem I have is because I am fat, even though changing that would improve some aspects of my health.

      Body positively also means that I am not going to hide when I go to the beach. I am going to go shirtless and enjoy myself. If you do not find me sexually attractive, that is fine. If you are going to shame or mock me for my body fat, then you are an asshole. If I catch wind of you mocking me, I will quietly estimate how many times your bodyweight I will deadlift on Monday. If you choose to mock the scars that cover parts of my body from extreme, life-saving surgery, I may feel the need to firmly educate you on exactly what sort of asshole you are.

      Body positively often conjures the image of a morbidly obese girl on OnlyFans who lets people pay to watch her binge and intentionally get fatter while she says being purposefully inactive is just as healthy as hitting the gym. The real versions of that person are extremely rare, but their radicalism, vociferous nature, and platform make their voices much louder in comparison. Their argument is also easy to find flaw with and mock, so they get used as if they are a typical example of body positivity.

      You are right in that the woman I describe above needs help and is not behaving in a safe or healthy way. I also understand why you might think that is the norm. She is not, though, and I would encourage you to look deeper at the meaning of the "movement."

      The "you" above is generic and based on broad assumptions. You, the reader, might be stronger than me and have way more endurance than me. You also might be fatter than I am. The odds are very good that you are also not an asshole. My point was to call out variances from the norm as convenient examples, of which I have plenty in both directions.

      • If you’re a hundred pounds overweight, you should not be comfortable with who you are. People who support or celebrate morbid obesity are bad people.

        • It does not appear that you are really listening to others to do much as commenting pithy things, and I am not sure if you have some specific reason for this or if you are just picking fights.

          But let's still break this down. Literally no one here is talking about celebrating morbid obesity. That is pretty much a straw man at this point.

          Morbidly obese people should be able to look in the mirror and think to themselves, "I look good today!" They should be allowed to go out without worry that someone will make fun of them. They should be able to go to the doctor and be heard instead of the doctor assuming every health problem is only caused by obesity.

          If you disagree with the above statements, please be very clear as to why. Everybody deserves quality medical care from their physician. Everybody deserves to not hate themselves. Everybody deserves to not be kicked for their appearance.

          No one is saying, "Woo-hoo! Try to be so fat it harms your health!" I would suggest you read up on the science of weight loss and why so many little are obese these days. There is not universal consensus, but there is general agreement that the deck is highly stacked against many people, and extra body fat is not a simple condition to deal with in many circumstances.

          People should try to lead the healthiest lifestyle they are reasonably able. No one is stating otherwise.

        • Yeah, shits me to tears that people think it's OK,

          I lost 35kgs through diet exercise etc and I felt absolutely amazing at the 30kg loss mark.

          Didn't think I felt bad at 125kg at 6ft tall when I hit 95 I felt amazing. Knees joints life everything easy.

          Getting down to 90 on strict diet was hard and life just wasn't fun anymore. Sure 6pack was cool and all but just no fun. I'm not blessed with those skinny genetics.

          Anyone who's fat and not been skinny in their adult life shouldn't think they're healthy and happy because everything is better when you're actually at a healthy weight.

    • I agree that we should strive for people to be healthy. But there's a lot of evidence to suggest that shame not only is ineffective but can actually have the opposite effect.

      Besides, I think you're being pretty reductive. Health includes both physical and mental, we should take steps to improve both of these. And I get the sense that you specifically take issue with body positivity specifically around fat people, as I assume you don't think being short or tall is unhealthy. In which case, you're ignoring the economics of it (at least in America, there are a ton of government subsidies for corn, incentivizing businesses to load up our food with corn syrup).

      The issue is complex and so would any solutions. At least in America, we need to deincentivize the production of unhealthy food, better access to healthcare, and cultural shifts as well. And I'm sure there's a whole lot I'm missing.

      • If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight. Embracing being fat and blaming others is not healthy, it’s delusional.

        There’s also a ton of government subsidizes for other fruits and vegetables. Don’t blame the government for your poor eating habits. Learn to prepare real food. It’s healthier, cheaper, and more abundant. You don’t need to deincentivize producing unhealthy food, you just need to choose not to eat it.

        This culture of supporting people who are overweight is making us all lose sight of what a healthy lifestyle looks like. As generations spend less time working physically and more time sitting, our diets should be moving towards far less calories. Instead, we’re being made into nothing more than consumers who click a button to have bad food delivered to us while we sit on the couch.

        The only complex issue is how we got here. It’s not complex to make healthier choices. I’d argue it’s easier than what we’re doing now. To quote Michael Pollan, “eat food, not too much, mostly plants”.

        • If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight.

          You would think so, but you'd be wrong. As I said before, shaming not only doesn't work but has the opposite effect.

          As James Corden said:

          If making fun of fat people made them lose weight, there'd be no fat kids in schools.

          If you're sincere in your desire to make people healthier, then shame is not the way.

          If you're only interested in a feeling of superiority, then carry on I guess.

          • Except that I never suggested people should be shamed by others or made fun of. I said if a person felt ashamed of themselves, that should motivate them.

            • Do I need to repeat myself for a 3rd time? Do you not realize that "ashamed" is the adjective form of "shame"?

              • Wow. You’re really stuck on not engaging in this conversation. You can lie to yourself all you want and pretend you’re somehow more virtuous than everyone else. I’m not taking the bait.

                • I'm frankly not even clear what the conversation is that you're trying to have. You claim, "I'm not saying we should shame people" and then go on to once again declare that "if people feel ashamed they'll lose weight". So which is it, is shame helpful as a weightloss tool or not? Spoiler alert: it's not.

                  To me it honestly seems like you accidentally triple downed on an objectively bad position and are trying to buzzword your way out of it with accusations of virtue signaling and trolling.

                  Just take the L and move on dude.

                  • I don't know if you're trolling me or you genuinely don't understand words.

                    To shame someone is entirely different than to feel ashamed of yourself. If you kick a dog, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. If you forgo a healthy weight or lifestyle in favor of overconsumption and ignorance, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. Someone informing you that you are overweight is not the same as them shaming you.

                    I swear, people are so hell bent on virtue signaling that they lose all sense of reality.

                    • To shame someone is entirely different than to feel ashamed of yourself.

                      Is it? The end result is a feeling of shame. And that feeling of shame, doesn't make people lose weight. I've now said it for the 4th time. But yeah, I'm the one that doesn't understand words.

                      If you kick a dog, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. If you forgo a healthy weight or lifestyle in favor of overconsumption and ignorance, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you.

                      I see, so it's a moral failing of someone to be fat? Akin to kicking a dog? Wild take.

                      In the end, you're right. I'm not interested in having this conversation. Because this isn't a conversation about making people healthier, it's a moral conversation. And I don't think someone is immoral for having an eating disorder just as I don't think someone is immoral for having cancer.

                      If you would like to discuss actionable, material ways to help people I'm all in. If you want to larp as a televangelist screeching about the evils of being fat, I'm out.

                      • LOL. You’re just arguing with yourself and your own made up conversation at this point. You don’t have to answer but I am curious if you’re an adult.

        • Let me preface what I want to say with the fact that I have previously lost half of my bodyweight largely because of a lack of body positivity in my head, and it’s still lacking.

          You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life. Where does that end? Should only people who physically appear to be unhealthy be shamed? Should people who have actual unhealthy bodies be shamed? Should people who have invisible unhealthy habits like hidden bulimia be shamed? Should people who have unhealthy mental conditions that are only diagnosable by experts be shamed?

          I’m not being sarcastic or rhetorical, I’m genuinely curious where the line should be drawn. Some people are physically incapable of losing weight. Some people are perfectly healthy despite appearing overweight, yet they are treated like less valuable people because they don’t conform to beauty standards. Some people are notably ill despite fitting conventional beauty standards.

          Body positivity is about eliminating social standards of beauty that ignore health, not about making unhealthy people think they’re better off being unhealthy. Furthermore, health is absolutely a luxury for many people. When survival is expensive, surviving with the time and money to take care of your body can be unattainable

          • You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life.

            I never said or suggested that and resent you putting those words into my mouth. No one should make fun of someone's weight. No one should shame someone because of their weight. You're making up a lot of ideas that I never presented. I'm not spending any more time dissecting everything you claim I said and defending myself. I think I was pretty clear about how our culture supports and celebrates being fat and I don't think that's beneficial for people's mental or physical health.

            • If you think the culture celebrates being unhealthy then you should know the only part of the culture that does that is the corporations that benefit off of it. The rest of us are trying to eliminate the unconscious bias people have against people who are “fat.”

              If you see someone who you think is unhealthy because they “fat,” think again.

              • I am not observing the same reality you’re describing. I am seeing a culture of people who celebrate themselves and others who are severely obese, as if that’s a good thing. I have witnessed first hand that people are trying to gain weight because they believe it’s attractive and empowering. I have witnessed discussion that celebrates laziness and consumerism as goals to be rewarded over hard work and physical and mental well being.

                I agree that corporate propaganda is a portion of this culture and I’m saying that we all need to recognize that we’ve been brain washed. More so, the propaganda is coming from people who already feel bad about themselves and are forcing others to accept them and their disinterest in being healthy.

                “I’m fat and don’t care to lose weight, you should celebrate me and you should be like me too.” Apparently, anyone who chimes back suggesting they go to a doctor and get a health check is “shaming” them. You have to support them, you have to say “you do you, live your best life”, etc otherwise you’re disparaging them. It’s not about you giving a shit about that person, it’s about you virtue signaling so no one can judge you.

    • Do you think short people are living an unhealthy lifestyle?

    • Body positivity" is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles

      Feels like you are falling in to the same critism trap that catches "Pride" events, lots of people say that they can be proud of lots of things, not nessecarily an indentity or sexuality.

      But pride is more about not feeling shame for things you can't control. Body positivity is about way more than overweight people, but being happy of who you are regardless of any stigma.

      It's not my place to say people should like "short kings", I truly couldnt care less about individuals liking or disliking a given term. I just feel your reasoning would be better built upon infantalizing without attacking people that are fidng zen outside of unfair cultural stigma.

    • The body positivity movement is honest, it's just not needlessly cruel. Obesity is an epidemic caused by our food systems, and body positivity seeks to remove shaming and bullying the individual from our culture. Yes there are actions individuals can take, but those actions are much easier to take the more resources, money, and time you have.

      I listened to a great podcast recently that discussed this: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0hIhaRvji14Xk7xltlfzDl?si=W7Lm9F9ERH2jM_LqdNHleA

      Here's the most relevant part of the transcript. It's a bit weird to read, it's really better as a podcast so I do recommend listening

      ... an amazing woman named Shelly Bovee. She's basically the person who introduced body positivity into Britain. So she grew up in a working class town in Wales where she was, she describes herself the only fat girl in her school. And one day when she was 11 her teacher said to her, Bovee stay behind after class. So she stayed behind thinking what have I done wrong? And the teacher said to her, you're much too fat, it's disgusting, go see the school nurse, she'll sort you out. So kind of shaken Shelly went to see the school nurse. The school nurse said, why are you here? She said, well the teachers are too fat. She said, take off your clothes, I'm going to inspect you. She took off her clothes and the school nurse said, this is disgusting. You're a greedy pig. Stop eating so much. Just berated her. So Shelly left and her whole life she was soaking up abuse and insults. and it made her hate herself and hate her body. In fact she told me she hadn't ever looked at her body when she was showering even. She'd never looked at her body naked because she hated it so much.

      And then she learned about the body positivity movement which had obviously begun in the US, that was saying this is just a form of bigotry and bullying and cruelty and we don't have to take this shit. As Shelley introduced it to Britain Wright I heard of her for the first time. I remember seeing her on TV when I was 10 years old when she was presented as kind of laughable madwoman and she really pioneered opposing stigma and she remains proud to this day of the work she did, rightly so in my view.

      But Shelley also faced another problem. She was extremely obese and she was finding it hard to walk. In fact she was in a wheelchair a lot of the time and a doctor told her she had heart problems. And she really began to wrestle with well am I betraying my body positivity if I talk about the harm caused by obesity to my health? And she began to say well what kind of body positivity would it be that would judge me for keeping my body alive? That doesn't seem like body positivity to me. She lost an enormous amount of weight through calorie restriction and exercise and became much healthier.

      And she stands by everything she said about stigma but she said it's not either or. It's not either you're against stigma or you're in favor of reducing obesity where possible. It's both and. If you love someone who's obese you want to protect them from cruelty, shaming and bullying.And if possible you want to protect them from diabetes, heart disease, dementia. So to me there's no playoff between those two

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