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love how this post is turning this fascinating thought experiment (which a lot of people don't seem to understand very well)
and turning it into correlation, not even causation of correlation, this is literally just taking two random things and smashing them together lmao.
there are so many variables to how this can be interpreted that make this a very difficult to comprehend statement.
I don't know. Seems kind of straightforward to me. Women's safety is more important than men's feelings. I agree with that statement. Do you not agree with that statement?
based on what though? Womens safety is more important than men feeling that raping women is bad? I think that might not check out.
Womens safety from being bombed by russia (nuclear warhead btw) while men have feelings about that one argument they had last week?
I mean, i like reductionism as much as the next guy, but you gotta give me something palatable, not just word salad.
based on what though?
Ethics? Feelings can be uncomfortable, but even the worst feeling are survivable. Safety is like physical safety. Like death is a possibility if things are not safe.
Womens safety is more important than men feeling that raping women is bad?
Yes. Also, men feeling that raping women is bad, is good for the safety of women. So, no need to stop feeling that. It would be preferred even.
Womens safety from being bombed by russia (nuclear warhead btw) while men have feelings about that one argument they had last week?
Yes. Swap the sexes see if it still makes sense. Do you want die because some woman had a fight and had feelings about it? BTW, if you have some story behind this hypothetical. I would be interested to hear exactly how a man's feelings about argument turns into Russia bombing a woman.
Feelings can be uncomfortable, but even the worst feeling are survivable.
yeah, so then by this logic, women shouldn't be choosing to be with a bear, assuming that's what we're still talking about. Unless this post is meta ironic and i'm missing that from the beginning, than the entire premise of half the comments on this post are bullshit.
Safety is like physical safety. Like death is a possibility if things are not safe.
yeah, and the reason why people are picking the bear, is due to emotional safety, they do not feel safe around men, that's the point, it doesn't matter whether they are more/less physically safe around the man over the bear, or vice versa, the entire point is the emotional safety. Which is the one thing that people don't seem to realize when commenting on this (granted the meme in the OP seems to clarify this to a significant enough degree i'll give them a pass. My point here is that you need to communicate clearly, because otherwise you could be saying literally anything.
Yes. Also, men feeling that raping women is bad, is good for the safety of women. So, no need to stop feeling that. It would be preferred even.
i agree, but in this case, the irony here is that we aren't supposed to care about the feelings of men generically, which would include this, because somehow the entire generic of "women being physically safe" is now more important, than the entire offending class of people against women.
Yes. Swap the sexes see if it still makes sense. Do you want die because some woman had a fight and had feelings about it? BTW, if you have some story behind this hypothetical. I would be interested to hear exactly how a man’s feelings about argument turns into Russia bombing a woman.
the point here was that these statements weren't related at all. I was literally just putting two irrelevant things together. It's literally just nonsense to articulate my point about why this statement is not a very good one. It's broad enough that my nonsense statement is following the premise accurately here.
yeah, so then by this logic, women shouldn’t be choosing to be with a bear,
What women are saying, is based on all the information shown to them and what they have gathered on their own. Given a choice between a random man and a random bear. They would chose to be lost in the woods with a bear. They feel physically and emotionally safer with the bear. Is their assessment accurate/correct, who knows?
Does this mean all men are rapists? No, no one has said that.
it doesn’t matter whether they are more/less physically safe around the man over the bear,
I disagree, why would physical saftey not be important? A bear could be happy just leaving them alone and eating berries. A man might decide to do something physically unwanted/dangerous to them.
My point here is that you need to communicate clearly, because otherwise you could be saying literally anything.
I agree, I wish the people who are raging at me and down-voting me would be nice, and tell me what interpretation they have of the statement. Instead I am getting vague feelings posting with no arguments. Thank you for diving into this with me.
i agree, but in this case, the irony here is that we aren’t supposed to care about the feelings of men generically
No one in this conversation has said that. The feelings of men are important. The feelings of women are important. The saftey of men is more important that the feelings of women.The safety of women are more important than the feelings of men. Saying one does not contradict the other.
the point here was that these statements weren’t related at all
I agree, I thought this was a hypothetical, sorry I was wrong.
Men's feelings can have an effect on the saftey of women. Imagine if the majority of men felt like they were owed sex even if women didn't want it. These feelings will cause most women to be physically unsafe.
What women are saying, is based on all the information shown to them and what they have gathered on their own. Given a choice between a random man and a random bear. They would chose to be lost in the woods with a bear. They feel physically and emotionally safer with the bear. Is their assessment accurate/correct, who knows?
they're not physically safer though, that's the problem. There is almost no world in which that would make sense statistically. "feeling safe" and "being safe" and two entirely independent concepts, sure you might be in a sketchy area that you know is unsafe, and as a result feel unsafe, that might be because it is unsafe. But that also doesn't mean that it is, which is why people often get caught up with shit in these types of situations.
How many times have you seen someone go "man i just though something bad was gonna happen, and then it did" and yet they didn't do anything about it?
Emotionally they'd prefer to be around a bear sure, but if the statement here is that "feelings don't matter" then the answer should literally be the opposite, because those feelings simply wouldn't fucking exist. on account of the not mattering part you can't just go "well feeling unsafe, means that you think you're physically unsafe" because in this example, there is literally no way to feel unsafe. It's hypothetically impossible. You cannot "use any information you've gathered" because that information is obviously emotionally relevant. The only real data you could use here is statistics, and those would probably paint an extremely favorable position for my argument. (even ignoring the under-reporting, because those are more than likely repeat offenders, who have almost certainly already been reported at some point)
Like i said the OP did a much better job here, maybe the OP of this thread was a little more clear? Idk at this point, but i've seen a lot of "safety is more important than feelings" statements, which would be what i'm complaining about specifically here. If i'm wrong then oh well.
I disagree, why would physical saftey not be important? A bear could be happy just leaving them alone and eating berries. A man might decide to do something physically unwanted/dangerous to them.
this is the problem. Physical safety is theoretically important here, but we are talking about a rhetorical device specifically designed to be controversial and "illogical" because the entire reason behind it, was to make a point, that women have different experiences leading to them understanding people differently, and as a result influencing their emotional state to a point where it confounds with what is typically misconstrued to be "physical safety" the point of the original statement was literally never about physical safety. If it was about physical safety there would be a 1 in 2 chance that any random man is a serial rapist. Apologies if i'm being a little brazen here, but i don't fucking believe that.
the hypothetical here is literally about being lost in a forest with two less than optimal options, one is a bear, and the other is a man, arguably the animal of your own fucking species is probably going to be more ok with this. This is also ignoring the conflation that the bear is just "fucking somewhere eating berries" and not, with it's cubs. Freaking out because you just fucking teleported into the woods (because otherwise the original hypothetical doesnt make any fucking sense) or at best, not even aware of your presence, which, seems unlikely. While also making the conflation that "a man might do something" yeah, literally anybody could do literally anything at any time. How many people do you see walking down the street with a bag/backpack and don't think twice about the fact that it could have a bomb in it? How many times do you drive down the road/highway assuming that someone behind you, infront of you, or passing you isn't going to fuck your day up completely? The answer is a lot Yeah sure a man might do something, the keyword here is might. The bear might also fucking do something. The man might also not even realize you exist to begin with.
It's important to remember that in the field of statistics, unless explicitly stated otherwise, the functional utility of the term "might" is equivalent across all situations, because there is literally no way to quantify "might" There is no statistical likelihood that something happens, or doesn't it merely has the possibility of happening. Quantifying that is an incredibly easy way to fuck up all kinds of numbers.
I agree, I wish the people who are raging at me and down-voting me would be nice, and tell me what interpretation they have of the statement. Instead I am getting vague feelings posting with no arguments. Thank you for diving into this with me.
yeah, i don't even bother upvoting/downvoting anything because i just come here to talk with people lol. Although judging by this point this thread is probably long enough that nobody is even reading it anymore lol, which is only beneficial to the both of us.
No one in this conversation has said that. The feelings of men are important. The feelings of women are important. The saftey of men is more important that the feelings of women.The safety of women are more important than the feelings of men. Saying one does not contradict the other.
yeah, i mostly just came here to argue that this statement is bad because it's vague and wrong, and neither of those make for a particularly solid argument. Sometimes it's useful to use arguments and statements like that as a mechanism to conceptualize things, which is why i even started this thread to begin with, i thought it would be interesting to conceptualize such a vague statement through such a strict rule set. It's a good way of learning about things, because it forces you and other people to think about it.
I agree, I thought this was a hypothetical, sorry I was wrong.
yes, the idea there was to make a point about how easy it is to say something nonsensical with no foundation and have people go "yeah that makes sense, i like this statement" people will try to make sense of shit that doesn't make sense, because we've been led to believe that words strung together have meaning. This is why chatgpt is so fucking good.
Men’s feelings can have an effect on the saftey of women. Imagine if the majority of men felt like they were owed sex even if women didn’t want it. These feelings will cause most women to be physically unsafe.
absolutely (not to mention make them statistically, less physically safe), which is why the statement being parroted by this post irks me, because it's obviously not considering the whole picture. And don't get me wrong, i do like the original statement from the get go, because the idea behind it is that "women feel so emotionally unsafe around men, that they would rather be with a bear, in the woods, because they have no prior experience with bears" the point is that it's supposed to be absurd, because it is, and the only reason why it is absurd is to make a point, about the underlying problem. The current problem is that people seem to have lost the concept of the original statement, and are simply now doing the usual "internet screaming match" over it, much like i did earlier in this comment lol.
The point is not that you would rather be with a bear the point is that you would rather not be with a man given the option of a bear and people seem to be focusing on the fact that they would rather be with a bear instead. The underlying problem here, as we can all agree, is that bears are not fun to be around, they shouldn't be more fun than being around a man, that's bad that's not something that should even be possible, yet it is.
I appreciate your reply.
they’re not physically safer though, that’s the problem.
I think this kind of misses the point. Women have given us their feelings on the man/bear topic. Which are implicitly valid as all feelings are (from men or women). Telling them that they have done an incorrect assessment of the situation is invalidating their feelings. This of course adds weight against the man category especially how a large group of people got personally offended by a data point. The interesting piece of information here is that women feel less safe with a man than a bear. Not that their feelings are rooted in reality, because they don't have to be.
The signal the women are getting is that yeah, their feeling don't matter. If their feelings don't matter, what else doesn't matter? Are they going to get "um, actually-ed" when they try to set personal boundaries. Can you see that if a lot of men don't respect women's feeling and personal boundaries that it can turn into a physical saftey issue?
To answer your paragraph about what is likely to happen or if the assessment is correct. I don't care. It's a roll of the dice. The bear will kill the woman sometime and the man will kill the woman sometimes and other times nothing will happen. I am not a bear scientist nor a sociologist, I don't have the numbers in front of me. The question of what actually would happen is uninteresting to me as it is a hypothetical. We don't need to accurately prepare for the man/woman/bare/woods situation, it's not likely to happen.
I did a quick (probably bad) google and I got this: "1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted).". from https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem.
I think this kind of misses the point. Women have given us their feelings on the man/bear topic. Which are implicitly valid as all feelings are (from men or women). Telling them that they have done an incorrect assessment of the situation is invalidating their feelings. This of course adds weight against the man category especially how a large group of people got personally offended by a data point. The interesting piece of information here is that women feel less safe with a man than a bear. Not that their feelings are rooted in reality, because they don’t have to be.
oh absolutely, my problem is less with the example, and what people think about it, because it's impossible for me to understand another persons position on account of not being that person. But the way that it's being portrayed. Like you said, it's about the meta conversation, not the literal statement. Which is why i initially found it really weird that people kept re-iterating that initial statement, expecting people to somehow understand the underlying meaning behind it, even though that was never elaborated on.
Also it's not that their feelings aren't rooted in reality, it's more so a hyper reality, where the potential for something to happen goes from potentially, to almost certainly. Which is understandable given their experiences, but again, misleading which is important to keep in mind when talking literally about the subject. (which is not what we're doing here to begin with so meh)
The signal the women are getting is that yeah, their feeling don’t matter. If their feelings don’t matter, what else doesn’t matter? Are they going to get “um, actually-ed” when they try to set personal boundaries. Can you see that if a lot of men don’t respect women’s feeling and personal boundaries that it can turn into a physical saftey issue?
where is this signal coming from? My thread specifically, this post more broadly, the topic at hand, or in a societal fashion? If we're talking on a individual level, just one person, you or me, feelings mean literally nothing, they are magic. We do not understand them. You put two people in a room together and suddenly those feelings allow an incredibly in depth level of communication and interaction between two people. They seem to be specifically for the use case of people interacting, you put a group of people in a room, and cliques will form, people will break off, and sub group with each other. In this case feelings seem to drive a functional cohesion between groups of people, while enabling conflict resolution. My question here is that these things are complicated, i need more specifics to properly understand what you mean here.
To answer your paragraph about what is likely to happen or if the assessment is correct. I don’t care. It’s a roll of the dice. The bear will kill the woman sometime and the man will kill the woman sometimes and other times nothing will happen. I am not a bear scientist nor a sociologist, I don’t have the numbers in front of me. The question of what actually would happen is uninteresting to me as it is a hypothetical. We don’t need to accurately prepare for the man/woman/bare/woods situation, it’s not likely to happen.
yeah this is what i'm kind of stuck on here, why are people using the hypothetical then? Wouldn't it be vastly more productive to talk about the underlying problem? Yet some people seem/seemed deadset on solidifying the conceptualization of the hypothetical, even though people clearly didn't understand what the purpose of it was.
did a quick (probably bad) google and I got this: “1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted).”. from https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem.
i understand that it's high, the interesting stat to me here is how many unique men a single woman will interact with throughout her life, because pairing those two stats together gives you a very detailed understanding of both how these things work together, and how we can conceptualize the stats for this specific hypothetical, as well as more broadly, since yknow, we interact with people, it's kind of a requirement for living. I imagine that specific stat is probably going to be much much lower than one would think. Given how many people you pass by on any given day.
where is this signal coming from?
A very large amount of people who think the result of the man/bear thought experiment means that all men are bad/rapists. I have been arguing with quite a few.
So, I am confused. I thought we disagreed on more. But I think we agree on most things. Am I missing something?
A very large amount of people who think the result of the man/bear thought experiment means that all men are bad/rapists. I have been arguing with quite a few.
ok so it's more on a thread/societal level then, yeah that was pretty much what it thought as well. Just wanted to be sure before trying to pull shenanigans or anything.
We probably agree, my problem is that i think people are shooting themselves in the foot by not correctly representing the situation here and as a result, not doing a net positive (or as much as they could be), or potentially even a net negative.
Basically TL;DR "litmus test" for this, is that if someone comes in and says "are you calling all men rapists?" you've probably done a funny somewhere, and it should probably changed. Obviously theres always going to be the one dude, but that's an exception so i'm not counting that. It's just important to be careful about who you consider the exception to be, because in ww2, it was a little spicier than the topic at hand today.